Logical contradictions?

[downbeatplumb]

That seems odd to me since god was referred to as such long before the apparent birth of Jesus if god doesn't exist without all three members of the trinity.

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. In Hebrew the "im" is used at the end of a word to signify that it is plural. God often uses the plural in speaking about himself. "Let us make man in our image."

But Elohim does not mean just Yahweh but also Baal and the other gods that were around at the time.
Wikipedia does not have the meaning for elohim that you give it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. In Hebrew the "im" is used at the end of a word to signify that it is plural. God often uses the plural in speaking about himself. "Let us make man in our image."

Then I have to wonder why modern english translations of the bible don't reflect things of that nature because God seems to refer to himself in the singular an awful lot in the old testiment and others refer to him as a singular individual instead of a group - like community, tribunal, trinity, triage, borg, etc.

Personally, I've always liked the term "Kami" as well, but that's coming from a Dragonball Z fan. Then there's also "Super Kami Guru."

[Minimalist]

"God often uses the plural in speaking about himself. Let us make man in our image."

That god of yours is a pompous ass, Theo. Or at least the men who invented him were.

[Captain Scarlet]

I think a lot of comments are valid, but this thread was set up to address a logical contradiction which I would assert falsified Christianity in that it is not possible for Jesus (assuming he existed) to be fully god and fully man. All theist claims to reconcile this on this thread have so far appealed to mysticism, unfounded speculation or logically invalid assertions. Formally the argument is simple:

p1 christian theism asserts god is an immaterial, eternal, unlimited personal being that dwells in a supernatural realm
p2 a man is a finite, limited being that is bound in time and space
p3 Christian theism asserts Jesus was a man that was born and died
p4 if Christian theism is true then Jesus was fully man and fully god
c from p1,2,3,4 Christian theism is false

[Ashendant]

Think of Christ as gods avatar on earth, like your nickname is your avatar on this forum, you act diferently under your avatar than you do in real life, and your avatar is not made of flesh or neurons, same with god.

Did i just compare Christ to a internet avatar... The way the holy ghost interacts makes me think it may be Gods Admin account

Hi. Thanks. God and an avatar are immaterial. Jesus was a material being. By definition a material being is limited and finite, the Christian god unlimited and infinite and an avatar abstract ( although the difference between something immaterial and abstract is a fine one). Therefore Jesus was not an avatar

An god's avatar is a being that represents that god on the planet that he wants to represent, he is technically a god but he is limited as the body of the being he's in, it doesn't matter how infinite he is and how big, the avatar represents a deity, it is the deity, but not the entirety of the being.

That's how things are in book of fictions i usually read, i especially liked it's use in the Id'hun memories triology, the god takes over a dead body, the dead body recovers and acts like the person it was in life but it gains god-like powers, and the objectives of the god, and also the love for his servants.

[Captain Scarlet]

[/quote]
An god's avatar is a being that represents that god on the planet that he wants to represent, he is technically a god but he is limited as the body of the being he's in, it doesn't matter how infinite he is and how big, the avatar represents a deity, it is the deity, but not the entirety of the being.

That's how things are in book of fictions i usually read, i especially liked it's use in the Id'hun memories triology, the god takes over a dead body, the dead body recovers and acts like the person it was in life but it gains god-like powers, and the objectives of the god, and also the love for his servants.
[/quote]

fiction indeed :-)

[Ashendant]

An god's avatar is a being that represents that god on the planet that he wants to represent, he is technically a god but he is limited as the body of the being he's in, it doesn't matter how infinite he is and how big, the avatar represents a deity, it is the deity, but not the entirety of the being.

That's how things are in book of fictions i usually read, i especially liked it's use in the Id'hun memories triology, the god takes over a dead body, the dead body recovers and acts like the person it was in life but it gains god-like powers, and the objectives of the god, and also the love for his servants.
[/quote]

fiction indeed :-)
[/quote]
Well both are fiction, so my point is valid

[RAD]

I understand that you are trying to rationalise the dogma with the contradiction. But you are not only paying an intellectual price for doing do it just can't be the case. The reason is you are staing Jesus became a god and was therefore not eternal and not fully a god. Even of this were possible he would have needed to become infinite and immaterial which he didn't even after death because he was bodily resurrected and therefore still material. I'm afraid this does not reslve the contradiction. Which if I précis it is: Jesus could not be fully man (limited) and fully god (unlimited) and therefore chrstianity is founded on a fallacy and is false.

Isn't it ironic that I'm trying to answer a question sincerely and it is you who is basically picking nits over definitions? Should I become an atheist now because Jesus grew in his understanding and omniscience? Why should I care how and when he became fully God? Obviously, he either wasn't omnipotent or did not choose to be omnipotent before he was killed, and he certainly wasn't "God" as a child because it says he "grew in wisdom and stature"

What if God is just 8 million times wiser and more benevolent than you are but not "perfect" in your eyes? How foolish is it to wait for a better one?

Like I told another atheist, suppose Jesus came back and healed 82% of all the terminally ill people in all the hospitals? You'll do what? Complain?

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I think a lot of comments are valid, but this thread was set up to address a logical contradiction which I would assert falsified Christianity in that it is not possible for Jesus (assuming he existed) to be fully god and fully man. All theist claims to reconcile this on this thread have so far appealed to mysticism, unfounded speculation or logically invalid assertions. Formally the argument is simple:

p1 christian theism asserts god is an immaterial, eternal, unlimited personal being that dwells in a supernatural realm
p2 a man is a finite, limited being that is bound in time and space
p3 Christian theism asserts Jesus was a man that was born and died
p4 if Christian theism is true then Jesus was fully man and fully god
c from p1,2,3,4 Christian theism is false

I did answer the dilemma. He was both at some point, or as close as any rational person should care about, but not always at the same time. I also pointed out how silly it is to care when he might have become "fully God." Your argument is a false dichotomy because it assumes he was both always, or nothing, and the New Testament does not claim he was both always. He had to grow in wisdom and he had to empty himself willingly.

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Fair enough. So does this mean that Jesus became one with god or that he simply discovered the depth of his own ability?

Good question. I would answer the former because he said "of my own self, I can do nothing" and "the Father who dwells in me does the works."

I'm not sure what this transfiguration mean. I'm assuming that Jesus essentially becomes a half-god in a sense (gaining omnipotent power, as half of omnipotence is still omnipotence, I think).

Yeah what's half of infinity?

I wouldn't have wanted to take him on at age 12. I have a feeling almost everybody was starting to feel stupid around him by then (if they were still capable of recognizing their own stupidity)

Good questions/points.

[Godscreated]

You can dismiss the Egyptain mythology because they do not claim to have a living God.

Er, I think you'll find they did.

The ancient Egyptians believed that their Pharaoh was the living embodiment of god on earth. A divine being.
Same as the Emperor in feudal Japan. They believed he was a divine being.
Same horse shit Christians spout about jesus.

They no longer practice these beliefs that is why they have been dismissed.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Good question. I would answer the former because he said "of my own self, I can do nothing" and "the Father who dwells in me does the works."

I'll take that as a "Yes?"

Yeah what's half of infinity?

I wouldn't have wanted to take him on at age 12. I have a feeling almost everybody was starting to feel stupid around him by then (if they were still capable of recognizing their own stupidity)

He didn't seem that different from most people - he used some divine power over the course of his life -but mostly in adulthood and he didn't seem to be able to use whatever abilities he had until he was literally dead.