The mind brain connection

[Edwardo Piet]

@evidence. Great minds think alike ;-)

Wow I didn't even see your post.

Anyhow, I appreciate your compliment saying that we both have great minds, but I wouldn't say my intellect has achieved the status of "greatness" and I don't know you well enough to know if you're at that status either....

...furthermore I don't know where to draw the 'non-greatness'>'greatness' line in the first place.

[theVOID]

Ok talking xtian theology...

The soul is : independent of the physical body; timeless; influenced by us; can contain God.

Nothing of the mind survives death.

The problem of a disembodied mind being falsified ( ie god) is unaddressed.

This is a deliberate part of the religious construct. ie the falsification should not be possible according to the reasoning of the construct.

So your soul upon entering heaven has none of your personality, memories or preferences? Sounds like you're getting screwed over. It's like the cannibal saying to the victim "Don't worry, some arbitrary part of what we know as "you" will live on, first in my digestive system and then in the ecosystem at large".

[tackattack]

Well bad pun aside... I agree that the mind and brain are correlated. There's plenty of evidence to back that up. You did make the positive claim though scarlet so that burden of proof was on you. I digress, I'll allow all of your evidence because I've already seen them. I agree EvF it would be pointless without cause to postulate a separate controller. Allow me to illustrate.
1- Primitive people didn't know about anything other that brains, because when they broke in someone's head it spilled out, but they had no knowledge of function.
2-More advanced man postulated that the self as an identity was an abstract construct and resided in the brain.
3-It was then postulated that manipulating the brain affected the "self" (furthermore mentioned as mind)
4-Hypothesis was made that when the brain dies the consciousness dies.

The disconnect is with 2 and 3 making 4 fallacious. Without completely analyzing the mind brain connection no further conclusions can be made. I've referenced an article somewhere in this forum (we've talked about this before), but I'm sure google would be your friend here, about people surviving brain death. There are actually a few out there. Here's the question If the brain is the ONLY repository where the mind is imprinted, when the brain dies, how can someone still have an identity? Before you answer I'm aware that some memories can be lost, some likes or dislikes could be changed, different phobias, etc.. I acknowledge all that stuff. I'm talking about the I. When you say, " I want an ice cream" I'm not talking about the wants, desires and personalities.. I'm talking about the "I" in that phrase.

[theVOID]

1- Primitive people didn't know about anything other that brains, because when they broke in someone's head it spilled out, but they had no knowledge of function.
2-More advanced man postulated that the self as an identity was an abstract construct and resided in the brain.
3-It was then postulated that manipulating the brain affected the "self" (furthermore mentioned as mind)
4-Hypothesis was made that when the brain dies the consciousness dies.

The disconnect is with 2 and 3 making 4 fallacious. Without completely analyzing the mind brain connection no further conclusions can be made.

Bollocks. We know that the personality or "self" is directly affected by manipulation of the physical brain, such as tumors. Patients with tumors can have dramatic personality changes dependent on where the tumor forms, or where sections of the brain are removed, or were damaged during the procedure.

I've referenced an article somewhere in this forum (we've talked about this before), but I'm sure google would be your friend here, about people surviving brain death. There are actually a few out there. Here's the question If the brain is the ONLY repository where the mind is imprinted, when the brain dies, how can someone still have an identity?

Surviving brain death with a personality? Lmao what a crock of shit. Brain dead is as dead as you can get, it shuts down your bodily functions, breathing, heart beat etc. These can be sustained artificially, but the person is now biological mechanics, not a living being. They certainly do not have a personality/identity.

Remember, family members giving an identity to the corpse does not mean the corpse has an identity of it's own.

Before you answer I'm aware that some memories can be lost, some likes or dislikes could be changed, different phobias, etc.. I acknowledge all that stuff. I'm talking about the I. When you say, " I want an ice cream" I'm not talking about the wants, desires and personalities.. I'm talking about the "I" in that phrase.

I as in "the being thinking these thoughts". There is no evidence of though being anything other than material processes, nor any area where the electrochemical processes of the brain are inadequate in accounting for functionality. To assume something else is going on without any logical necessity or evidence in indication makes you the possessor of yet another irrational belief.

[fr0d0]

The soul is : independent of the physical body; timeless; influenced by us; can contain God.

So your soul upon entering heaven has none of your personality, memories or preferences?

No, the soul is "influenced by us". Otherwise how is there a differentiation between saved and unsaved - a rational choice?

[theVOID]

The soul is : independent of the physical body; timeless; influenced by us; can contain God.

So your soul upon entering heaven has none of your personality, memories or preferences?

No, the soul is "influenced by us". Otherwise how is there a differentiation between saved and unsaved - a rational choice?

Influenced in what way? You'll need to be more specific rather than just blurting out words.

The difference would be where you end up after being detached from your memories/personality at death wouldn't it? Heaven for one Hell for the other.

[fr0d0]

I made a definition based on biblical observations (that you are at liberty to disagree with, but didn't) and you made a statement missing a factor.

The soul has to be influenced to be able to be judged as right or wrong by God. Our choices in life determine the state of our soul. Heaven or Hell are where our decisions take us. Our "essence" is what makes us us. What it isn't is anything dependant on physical mechanisms (after life).

[tackattack]

"Analysis of prospective data from three countries on patients with severe head injuries showed that not one of 1003 survivors would ever have been suspected of being brain dead even in their worst state soon after injury. "

ref. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1504374/

Brain dead is brain dead and their method for evaluation was tested an no confirmatory tests necessary. Some subjects experienced brain death, then recovered. You can call it bollox or crap or whatever. But you can't prove that the self dies when the brain dies. If neither one of yoou can see the obviousness of what I'm saying then I don't think they're any need to continue this conversation, don't deal well with blind anything.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'd really like to see this evidence of the mind surprising brain death if you really do have such evidence Tackattack.

EDIT: Oops, I was working on this post before yours Tacky.

It mentions severe brain injury and brain death. Those are not the same thing of course - is the paper really clear on the matter?

Recovery after supposed brain death has been alleged in patients who were thought to be brain dead but in fact were not and in cases where reflex movements in the limbs were mistaken for signs of life.

Doesn't this mean that they were incorrectly thought to be brain dead when it fact they were not?