Ban the Burkini

[abaris]

That one scene pales in comparison to the millions of Muslim women who are forced under threat of punishment to cover their bodies in public simply because they are female. So no, my opinion hasn't changed here.

No, it doesn't pale in comparison. Since, as I said in my first post. It's despicable either way. If you have grown up covering your body, forcing you to undress is akin to shaming and degrading yourself. It's on the same lines as ripping your pants off in public. Maybe you get my drift now. It's certainly not something that should be enforced by law if we want to continue to call ourselves liberal societies.

[Mermaid]

We wear clothing because of community/cultural norms and mores.

True enough, however I wonder how many women outside of Orthodox religious families (regardless of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism) risk physical violence or threats of hell for not conforming to those dress standards. I might wear a north face shirt because all my friends do, but nobody is going to hit me or call me a whore if I choose to dress differently.

I look at it as a matter of degrees.

I am a USA-born and raised, Subaru-driving feminist, don't get me wrong here.

[Regina]

Freedom of expression and womens' rights includes the right of an individual Muslim woman to not be told how to dress by anyone other than herself. Whether you're another Muslim who wants her to cover up, or someone else who wants her to strip down, it's not your decision to make and you need to let it go.

It's so petty.

That woman probably grew up in a fundamentalist Muslim community (which is most of who wear burkinis). Her whole life: She's been told that she'll burn in hell if she disobey's Islamic law, she's been told to always obey her father as part of that law, then told to always obey her husband. She's been told (in the best case scenario) that her family and community will disown her if she leaves Islam. She's been forced by her family to dress a certain way since puberty and before she was 18. Probably married extremely young.

Choice being made by herself is only is only in the very loosest of sense. Meanwhile how is her Husband dressed? Islam supposedly mandates modesty from both sexes, but 9 times out of 10 her husband is in western clothes, able to enjoy himself on the beach like a normal human. Although I don't believe in banning it, I can thoroughly say 'fuck the Burkini.'

I'm not saying none of this is true

Although I don't know how much I see that "the woman is covered while the man is Western" thing, if I'm honest. Typically, when I see a Muslim woman fully burka'd out (I'm talking the full black tent, with the letter-box face covering), her husband is in the traditional dress as well. I do normally see that.

But hey, if you see what you said about the husband being dressed normally while she's in a full black curtain, feel free to point it out and discuss it. I'm not saying we're not allowed to have an opinion, to comment, to discuss it. I think the subject actually needs an open dialogue if we're going to discourage it, but we can't force it.

What you can't do is police the issue and literally force a Muslim woman to strip down, and just for other peoples' comfort rather than her own too. Completely regardless of whether she started wearing the hijab by social pressure or by her own choice, she is probably used to dressing like that, and suddenly forcing her to strip in public is very embarrassing and uncomfortable for her.

I'll be honest, I actually do hate the idea behind hijab. I genuinely do think it's a horrible oppressive idea, that a woman must completely cover herself in public just to not sexually arouse men. It is victim-blaming shit. However, like I said earlier, it's something you have to gradually discourage in a natural way through open conversation and narratives. Shoe-horning your opinions onto everyone through forced laws isn't going to suddenly change peoples' minds overnight.

[Seraphina]

We wear clothing because of community/cultural norms and mores.

True enough, however I wonder how many women outside of Orthodox religious families (regardless of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism) risk physical violence or threats of hell for not conforming to those dress standards. I might wear a north face shirt because all my friends do, but nobody is going to hit me or call me a whore if I choose to dress differently.

+1
It's far too easy to take one's own freedoms for granted and simply shrug when people in a faraway place don't have the same freedoms.

[CapnAwesome]

That woman probably grew up in a fundamentalist Muslim community (which is most of who wear burkinis). Her whole life: She's been told that she'll burn in hell if she disobey's Islamic law, she's been told to always obey her father as part of that law, then told to always obey her husband. She's been told (in the best case scenario) that her family and community will disown her if she leaves Islam. She's been forced by her family to dress a certain way since puberty and before she was 18. Probably married extremely young.

Choice being made by herself is only is only in the very loosest of sense. Meanwhile how is her Husband dressed? Islam supposedly mandates modesty from both sexes, but 9 times out of 10 her husband is in western clothes, able to enjoy himself on the beach like a normal human. Although I don't believe in banning it, I can thoroughly say 'fuck the Burkini.'

I'm not saying none of this is true

Although I don't know how much I see that "the woman is covered while the man is Western" thing, if I'm honest. Typically, when I see a Muslim woman fully burka'd out (I'm talking the full black tent, with the letter-box face covering), her husband is in the traditional dress as well. I do normally see that.

But hey, if you see what you said about the husband being dressed normally while she's in a full black curtain, feel free to point it out and discuss it. I'm not saying we're not allowed to have an opinion, to comment, to discuss it. I think the subject actually needs an open dialogue if we're going to discourage it, but we can't force it.

What you can't do is police the issue and literally force a Muslim woman to strip down, and just for other peoples' comfort rather than her own too. Completely regardless of whether she started wearing the hijab by social pressure or by her own choice, she is probably used to dressing like that, and suddenly forcing her to strip in public is very embarrassing and uncomfortable for her.

I'll be honest, I actually do hate the idea behind hijab. I genuinely do think it's a horrible oppressive idea, that a woman must completely cover herself in public just to not sexually arouse men. It is victim-blaming shit. However, like I said earlier, it's something you have to gradually discourage in a natural way through open conversation and narratives. Shoe-horning your opinions onto everyone through forced laws isn't going to suddenly change peoples' minds overnight.

I think you are me are pretty much in agreement, especially on your last paragraph. That's why I don't think a ban is practical. Bans of anything rarely have the desired effect.

I just wanted to point out that choice comes from more then what the law mandates. These women rarely have freedom of choice as to what to wear. The consequences that they would normally suffer from their families for not covering up are normally far greater then those they would suffer from the french government for covering up. Although I never though I'd see the day when a government forced women to wear less clothes. In Israel recently a concert performer was told to put on more modest clothing at the beach(http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/....html?_r=0) . Also I wanted to show that you can be against the ban on practicality issues and still be fully opposed to the Burkina and everything is represents.

[Edwardo Piet]

And -- a French court has already struck down the law.

Good. Fuck 'em. Folks should be able to wear what da fuck they want.

[bennyboy]

The burkini ban is such fucking bullshit. Are muslim women going to the beach with fucking dynamite strapped under their still-tight-fitting clothes?

Way to protect free speech and liberty, France, by becoming what you claim to be against. Fuck y'all.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The burkini ban is such fucking bullshit. Are muslim women going to the beach with fucking dynamite strapped under their still-tight-fitting clothes?

Way to protect free speech and liberty, France, by becoming what you claim to be against. Fuck y'all.

Quoth an American officer in Vietnam, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

[Pat Mustard]

I do not disagree nor agree because I haven't put my thought into this at all, but from what I've heard,  reporting abuse isn't always easy. If you're not allowed to wear it, the people who opress women into wearing it can't really do anything about it, whereas reporting abuse can make it worse for the reporter.

They can and will. There's a lot less visibility of muslim women on streets after burqa bans have been implemented. Those who come from groups sensible enough not to require that particular piece of clothing are still around, but the women from cultures that enforce its wearing are now essentially trapped within their homes 24/7.

The idea of the burqa and the misogyny behind it must be dealt with, but a blanket ban without trying to expose and educate the culture behind it is not the way to go.

[RozKek]

I do not disagree nor agree because I haven't put my thought into this at all, but from what I've heard,  reporting abuse isn't always easy. If you're not allowed to wear it, the people who opress women into wearing it can't really do anything about it, whereas reporting abuse can make it worse for the reporter.

They can and will. There's a lot less visibility of muslim women on streets after burqa bans have been implemented. Those who come from groups sensible enough not to require that particular piece of clothing are still around, but the women from cultures that enforce its wearing are now essentially trapped within their homes 24/7.

The idea of the burqa and the misogyny behind it must be dealt with, but a blanket ban without trying to expose and educate the culture behind it is not the way to go.

that sucks

I think the long term solution is education to eradicate these shitty cultures