Ban the Burkini

[Mermaid]

I do not disagree nor agree because I haven't put my thought into this at all, but from what I've heard,  reporting abuse isn't always easy. If you're not allowed to wear it, the people who opress women into wearing it can't really do anything about it, whereas reporting abuse can make it worse for the reporter.

They can and will. There's a lot less visibility of muslim women on streets after burqa bans have been implemented. Those who come from groups sensible enough not to require that particular piece of clothing are still around, but the women from cultures that enforce its wearing are now essentially trapped within their homes 24/7.

The idea of the burqa and the misogyny behind it must be dealt with, but a blanket ban without trying to expose and educate the culture behind it is not the way to go.

And further controlling women by dictating what they wear is most certainly not the answer.

[Tiberius]

I do not disagree nor agree because I haven't put my thought into this at all, but from what I've heard,  reporting abuse isn't always easy. If you're not allowed to wear it, the people who opress women into wearing it can't really do anything about it, whereas reporting abuse can make it worse for the reporter.

No, reporting abuse isn't always easy; one might say that it's never easy. However, just because something isn't easy to do, doesn't mean we should be banning some secondary action (i.e. the wearing of specific clothes). If anything, we should be making it easier for people to report abuse, by giving them protections, ensuring they are looked after, etc.

Additionally, this ban might actually make things worse for the women being forced to wear these item of clothing, in two ways I can think of:

1) The husband might insist they wear the burqa anyway, thus forcing the wife to break the law. Given that they believe they are following "God's law", I don't find this scenario hard to believe.

2) The husband may force the wife to stay at home to avoid being in public while wearing the burqa. This would limit the contact the wife has with other people, and limit her chances at reporting the abuse.

[RozKek]

I do not disagree nor agree because I haven't put my thought into this at all, but from what I've heard,  reporting abuse isn't always easy. If you're not allowed to wear it, the people who opress women into wearing it can't really do anything about it, whereas reporting abuse can make it worse for the reporter.

No, reporting abuse isn't always easy; one might say that it's never easy. However, just because something isn't easy to do, doesn't mean we should be banning some secondary action (i.e. the wearing of specific clothes). If anything, we should be making it easier for people to report abuse, by giving them protections, ensuring they are looked after, etc.

Additionally, this ban might actually make things worse for the women being forced to wear these item of clothing, in two ways I can think of:

1) The husband might insist they wear the burqa anyway, thus forcing the wife to break the law. Given that they believe they are following "God's law", I don't find this scenario hard to believe.

2) The husband may force the wife to stay at home to avoid being in public while wearing the burqa. This would limit the contact the wife has with other people, and limit her chances at reporting the abuse.

Yeah, I agree. This seems to be a bit of a difficult problem to solve :/

[Tiberius]

I don't think it's a particularly difficult problem to solve at all really. It all depends on how "far" you want the solution to go. If you want to solve the problem of women being oppressed, then you make it illegal to force women people to wear items of clothing against their will, and make it easier for people to report abuse, offering protections for those who do.

Will it prevent all oppression? No, but point me to a law or policy that has done that. I'm of the opinion that whilst eradicating all oppression / crime is a worthy goal, we must accept that it will never happen, and the focus should instead be on limiting the oppression / crime without simultaneously impeding people's human rights.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think also education in public schools should focus on emphasizing the fact that the precepts of a liberal democratic society are more important than any one member, group, or faith.

[abaris]

1) The husband might insist they wear the burqa anyway, thus forcing the wife to break the law. Given that they believe they are following "God's law", I don't find this scenario hard to believe.

2) The husband may force the wife to stay at home to avoid being in public while wearing the burqa. This would limit the contact the wife has with other people, and limit her chances at reporting the abuse.

There's a third reason I pointed out before. The ones wearing that garb wether voluntarily or by coercing are named and shamed in public by police forces ripping their cloths off.

And make no mistake, this isn't an altruistic move in the name of women's liberation. If it was, they would enforce it on orthodox jews and christians also. Which won't happen, since they aren't on the receiving end of populous rage right now.

[downbeatplumb]

It should be down to what the woman wants.
But it does seem that when the male muslims decide what to wear to the beach they don't all dress like they came from the 14th Century.

[FatAndFaithless]

It should be down to what the woman wants.
But it does seem that when the male muslims decide what to wear to the beach they don't all dress like they came from the 14th Century.

Yeeah..I'm not really a fan of that little gif, because it equates forcibly making women wear something regardless of their consent, to attire that anyone (male or female for that matter) can wear whenever they like.

[Mister Agenda]

It's fine with me if governments ban Muslim-approved swimwear on public beaches.
Western women who visit Muslim countries are made to cover their female bodies and hair while in public.
When in Rome, do as the Romans.

I also find it odd that you'll see women wearing attire that completely covers their "tempting" female bodies while they're accompanied by men who wear whatever the hell they want.

Nah, I'm good with banning burqa swimsuits.

There are plenty of Muslim majority countries that don't require Western women to cover their hair. There are even some Muslim majority countries that don't require Muslim women to cover their hair.

But let's be like the ones that do, eh?

[Mister Agenda]

I agree with promoting counter-narratives to European Muslims and for all religions, actually. France bans all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools including turbans, crucifixes, etc, not just Islamic symbols.

A Muslim swimsuit for a female isn't the same as a hoodie. One can be worn by choice by men or women and one gets forced on to women so they can be "modest". Make no mistake, women are forced by their religious supervisors to cover themselves head to toe and are indoctrinated to believe it is their "choice".

One has to wonder about the Muslim men who live in these beach communites - while they have their women make themselves invisible, do you think they avoid being around women on the beach who are dressed in bikinis and swimwear to preserve their righteousness? Hell no, they're big fat hypocrites!

So I say keep the burkini bans and I hope the whole of France makes it law.

I make absolutely no denial that there are Muslim women forced into modesty, I hope that wasn't how I came across in my earlier post. It is law to wear hijab in some countries and I'm sure plenty of women are made to in the west as well.

But with that said, it's fairly obvious to me when a Muslim woman has chosen to wear hijab, styled herself, put together a look which is still modest but still has individuality;

---

[spoiler]

---

I don't think these hijabi women, or women wearing the "Burkini", are really fitting the whole "I was forced to dress like this by my father" narrative, and in their case, why shouldn't they be allowed to express themselves in this way?

As abaris said, it's equally wrong either way. I don't like when women are pressured or forced to dress modestly, or shamed for dressing "immodest". It's also wrong to force women to strip down if they don't want to.

It's about the choice. We're no better than Iran and Saudi Arabia if we stoop to their level of introducing a certain dress code that people have to follow.

We can discourage the ideas around female repression and sexual modesty sure, but we can't literally force people. It's not going to encourage people to see it the way we do. I think only after (like I said earlier) we encourage different narratives for European Muslims, promote secularism over segregated religious laws, and do away with religious identity politics, maybe then we'll start to see ideas like the hijab being discarded in a more natural and organic way.

Yeah, the burqhini isn't exactly traditional: it was invented in Australia several years ago. Conservative Muslims consider it quite scandalous because it is relatively form-fitting.