Posts: 66911
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 9:59 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2016 at 10:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 25, 2016 at 7:30 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: (October 25, 2016 at 7:26 pm)Jesster Wrote: Insulting someone isn't necessarily doing that. You can insult someone as a conclusion of your argument against them without using that fallacy ("you are wrong, and therefore you are a big bully"). If you use the insult as a method of attacking their ideas, then yes, it is an ad hominem.
I'm not entirely sure if Dawkins has made that fallacy or not, but the way you worded it didn't make it sound that way.
Well, he generally begins with "YHWH was a big bully. He commanded the deaths of blah blah and the destruction of blah blah."
Which is true, and not an ad hom in any case. An ad hom is saying that some position is wrong (in the case of "does god exist", factually wrong) -because- [insert insult here]. L2logic.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2658
Threads: 121
Joined: March 19, 2012
Reputation:
27
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:00 pm
(October 25, 2016 at 9:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (October 25, 2016 at 7:30 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Well, he generally begins with "YHWH was a big bully. He commanded the deaths of blah blah and the destruction of blah blah."
Which is true, and not an ad hom in any case. An ad hom is saying that some position is wrong (in the case of "does god exist", factually wrong) -because- they are a big bully. L2logic.
...yes. Dawkins wants us to believe Christianity is wrong/bad because YHWH is a bully...
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Posts: 3064
Threads: 3
Joined: July 10, 2016
Reputation:
37
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:02 pm
(October 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: (October 25, 2016 at 9:48 pm)Jesster Wrote: I'm just saying that it is not at all an ad hominem to use an insult in this manner.
If you want to dislike him for his tactics, I will grant you that. I am not really here to defend Dawkins. I'm just trying to clear up how this specific fallacy can be applied. It happens a lot with this one.
But it's very simple! Dawkins is trying to discredit the Judeo-Christian God. He does so via insults. This results in the fallacy of an ad hom.
No, that is not an ad hominem for the same reason I stated before.
I'm going to stop trying this one with you. You aren't worth this much effort. Call that insult an ad hominem if you want, but you'd still be wrong. 
I don't believe you. Get over it.
Posts: 66911
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:03 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2016 at 10:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If the question is whether or not "god" or god worship is -morally right-..not factually, then all of the nasty shit god does and commands is -still- not an ad hom. It's the subject of discussion, and it's still just as true as before. That;s the very reason that apologism exists, and it even forms the etymology of the term. Making apologies.
-what do you think they were making apologies -for-....lol?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2658
Threads: 121
Joined: March 19, 2012
Reputation:
27
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:06 pm
I think it's an ad hom because I find Dawkins doesn't ascend from that level, intellectually speaking. That there *is* the entirety of his argument, and simply insulting isn't a form of proving one's point.
Ad hom guys!
QED
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Posts: 66911
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:08 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2016 at 10:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So that's two latin terms you don't understand, then?
I;ve always wondered why, if god is great, an accounting of his sins would seem like an insult.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2658
Threads: 121
Joined: March 19, 2012
Reputation:
27
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:09 pm
(October 25, 2016 at 10:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So that's two latin terms you don't understand, then, lol?
Still the same old witty Rhythm I remember. I like it
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Posts: 66911
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:39 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2016 at 10:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
In the spirit of being witty, I have a question.
Would it -matter- if god existed, if it was a terrible fucker? Does any more need be said, about god, does the conversation need to "ascend" from that point? Personally, I don't think that it does. Assholes exist irl and I don't need to argue them into existence, but we don;t seem to be falling all over ourselves to worship them on the brute force of that fact. In that way, judeo christian god belief is pathetically funny. People have imagined such a terrible asshole that they feel compelled to worship it..idk, as the prime example of the asshole type. Prima Annulus.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 2658
Threads: 121
Joined: March 19, 2012
Reputation:
27
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 10:49 pm
(October 25, 2016 at 10:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: In the spirit of being witty, I have a question.
Would it -matter- if god existed, if it was a terrible fucker? Does any more need be said, about god, does the conversation need to "ascend" from that point? Personally, I don't think that it does. Assholes exist irl and I don't need to argue them into existence, but we don;t seem to be falling all over ourselves to worship them on the brute force of that fact. In that way, judeo christian god belief is pathetically funny. People have imagined such a terrible asshole that they feel compelled to worship it..idk, as the prime example of the asshole type. Prima Annulus.
I think there is more to be said still. I dunno, something about Euthyphro? 
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Posts: 66911
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Another apologist with his "clever" questions
October 25, 2016 at 11:58 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2016 at 12:05 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Euphyro is only compelling (either way) to people who have (even if only half-heartedly) drunk to god koolaid. The idea that piety and divinity are even -related- comes from left field, it's a non-issue...to me.
If god's a giant dick, I don't care that it exists. If gods a lovable loser who can't effect good..but desires and defines it, I still don't care. It's unremarkable either way. If good is good because it is good, who cares? If good is good only if/when commanded, who cares? Will you, for example, act differently either way? I won't.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
