Would you attack the Church if you could?

[Catholic_Lady]

and the churches own records show that 'small percentage' has been molesting for 1500 years

A group of people who have been around for 2000 years, of course there are always going to be bad seeds among those people for those entire 2000 years. 

Priests are not more likely to molest children than any average man. In fact, the occupation that has been most guilty of molesting children are teachers. So I don't understand the stereotype that priests are molesters when they don't do it any more often than the general public, and in fact less often than other vocations.

As for covering up, I do think that people working within the Church are more likely to cover up that sort of thing than those working in schools or other types of institutions, so I will give you that. I'm assuming because they want to avoid scandal and bad PR more so than schools do, for example, since a person's Church is much more a part of their identity than what school they currently for.

[Crossless2.0]

and the churches own records show that 'small percentage' has been molesting for 1500 years

A group of people who have been around for 2000 years, of course there are always going to be bad seeds among those people for those entire 2000 years. 

Priests are not more likely to molest children than any average man. In fact, the occupation that has been most guilty of molesting children are teachers. So I don't understand the stereotype that priests are molesters when they don't do it any more often than the general public, and in fact less often than other vocations.

As for covering up, I do think that people working within the Church are more likely to cover up that sort of thing than those working in schools or other types of institutions, so I will give you that. I'm assuming because they want to avoid scandal and bad PR more so than schools do, for example, since a person's Church is much more a part of their identity than what school they currently for.

Perhaps. Of course, bad PR and scandal is bad for hierarchical institutions with really deep pockets, too. I wonder if that might also have something to do with it? 

And when I say "I wonder" I'm speaking entirely rhetorically.

[Macoleco]

You are a catholic. No wonder you will defend the Church.

If by "the Church" you mean the millions and millions of completely innocent Church clergy that had absolutely 0 to do with the molestation or with the cover up of them, then yes. I will say you shouldn't slaughter them. Silly me.

I know that there are many priests out there who genuinely believe in what they preach. Also, I said the evil within me would do that. Obviously I wouldnt do that for real.

Now, I am sure people like the Pope and the cardinals know the Church is just a manipulative institution. And yet they are hypocrites who dare to lie and control people based on faith and fear. Brainwashing kids. For me, freedom of thought is the most important and valuable right a person has. And every religion, through the church, takes this freedom away. This is why I hate the Church so much. It is the epitome of everything that is wrong with humanity. 

By hating an institution, you are hating its leaders. The worst mafia is in the Vatican, and people like you defend them. Hopefully, the Church will eventually pay for their crimes.

[Cyberman]

I'm sorry, but the "they do it too" line won't fly. It's not about the relative numbers of molesters in different professions; I think we're all agreed that even one is too many. Rather, it's far more about what is done about these people when their offences come to light. The church has a history of protecting them even from investigation, denying them at the very least the opportunity of clearing their names. Priests have been moved around anonymously, to other areas with potentially fresh victims. A few years ago the catholic church in Ireland passed an edict, essentially prohibiting priests from discussing these matters with the authorities, meaning that every single Irish priest was suspect in the public mind, innocent or not.

Look at the furore that blew up over here with Operation Yewtree and the so-called disgraced BBC personalities. Can you imagine what would have happened if it been decided to keep it an internal matter, with super-injunctions preventing even the fact that people like Jimmy Savile were being questioned let alone found guilty? Auntie Beeb would be torn apart faster than you can say "owzabout that then"

[Catholic_Lady]

If by "the Church" you mean the millions and millions of completely innocent Church clergy that had absolutely 0 to do with the molestation or with the cover up of them, then yes. I will say you shouldn't slaughter them. Silly me.

I know that there are many priests out there who genuinely believe in what they preach. Also, I said the evil within me would do that. Obviously I wouldnt do that for real.

Now, I am sure people like the Pope and the cardinals know the Church is just a manipulative institution. And yet they are hypocrites who dare to lie and control people based on faith and fear. Brainwashing kids. For me, freedom of thought is the most important and valuable right a person has. And every religion, through the church, takes this freedom away. This is why I hate the Church so much. It is the epitome of everything that is wrong with humanity. 

By hating an institution, you are hating its leaders. The worst mafia is in the Vatican, and people like you defend them. Hopefully, the Church will eventually pay for their crimes.

Lol interesting.

[Amarok]

Nope only a thug resorts to such tactics

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm sorry, but the "they do it too" line won't fly. It's not about the relative numbers of molesters in different professions; I think we're all agreed that even one is too many. Rather, it's far more about what is done about these people when their offences come to light. The church has a history of protecting them even from investigation, denying them at the very least the opportunity of clearing their names. Priests have been moved around anonymously, to other areas with potentially fresh victims. A few years ago the catholic church in Ireland passed an edict, essentially prohibiting priests from discussing these matters with the authorities, meaning that every single Irish priest was suspect in the public mind, innocent or not.

Look at the furore that blew up over here with Operation Yewtree and the so-called disgraced BBC personalities. Can you imagine what would have happened if it been decided to keep it an internal matter, with super-injunctions preventing even the fact that people like Jimmy Savile were being questioned let alone found guilty? Auntie Beeb would be torn apart faster than you can say "owzabout that then"

My objection was to stereotyping priests in particular as child molesters when they don't do it any more than the average man, and less than people in some other vocations. I wasn't trying to say it wasn't bad. Yes, one is too many. 

I agree that those individuals responsible for either molestation or covering up should get reprimanded for their crimes. But they by no means make up all Priests, all Bishops, all Cardinals, or even Pope Francis. Which is why I take issue with someone on here saying they fantasize about killing all of them in horrible ways.

[vorlon13]

and we can look at that 1500 years of internal documentation 2 ways;

1)yeah, it'd be nice if after 1500 years the church wasn't still doing the coverup/reassign/stifle thing

2)in 1500 years, didn't it occur to anybody to destroy the paper trail ?


With the first, it might seem in all that time more effective ways of dealing with the issue might have been developed besides denying there's a problem, shuffling priests to new areas with fresh (unaware) victims, and suing victims to shut them up. And the second one is perhaps even more puzzling, destroying evidence would seem to be a no brainer, but even that simple solution to the problem seems to not have occurred to anyone in the church hierarchy.

With no records, the church could just say, well, this is a new problem, we had no idea how to deal with it, so we will do better now. For instance, no victim or their families will be sued any more, or required to sign secrecy agreements, and instead of just reassigning problem priests, the church poohbahs involved with covering up for the molesters will be in trouble now too, and the problem priests won't be reassigned anymore.

But with records going back 15 centuries, the church's response to this problem should be a little better thought out, particularly in regards to the suing the victims aspect. Tough to buy the 'Gee, we had no idea' BS when it is abundantly clear they did, and did for one and a 1/2 millennia.

[Doubting Thomas]

I'd rather see the consequences of 'belief' upped high enough those inclined in that direction will fold rather than be inconvenienced further.


Oh, you  have a Christian marriage and want a legal divorce?  So sorry, First Amendment and all that, you can't have one.  Too bad, so sad.

Oh, you want treated for your medical condition caused by an evolved bacteria?  So sorry, you can't have treatment because we respect your beliefs that it can't happen.  Too bad, so sad.

Oh, you want a crop insurance pay out for your drought loss?  So sorry, there are two different varieties of seed planted in that field, claim denied, you didn't do it right.  Too bad, so sad.

How about:  Nobody who professes belief in a god is allowed to file an insurance claim?  If you didn't want your car to be wrecked, you should have prayed to God to protect it.  If you didn't want a tornado to destroy your house, you should have prayed to God to keep it from happening.

[Macoleco]

I know that there are many priests out there who genuinely believe in what they preach. Also, I said the evil within me would do that. Obviously I wouldnt do that for real.

Now, I am sure people like the Pope and the cardinals know the Church is just a manipulative institution. And yet they are hypocrites who dare to lie and control people based on faith and fear. Brainwashing kids. For me, freedom of thought is the most important and valuable right a person has. And every religion, through the church, takes this freedom away. This is why I hate the Church so much. It is the epitome of everything that is wrong with humanity. 

By hating an institution, you are hating its leaders. The worst mafia is in the Vatican, and people like you defend them. Hopefully, the Church will eventually pay for their crimes.

Lol interesting.

I like that argument.