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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:43 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 5:50 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Absolute" x y and z's are -related- to direct realism, but not exclusive. I'm an indirect realist, but perfectly comfortable with stating that my indirect perception of a rock refers to an "absolute" of some pretty hard shit that hurts my toe when I kick it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 5:48 pm by emjay.)
Basically the problem I'm having in conceptualising direct realism vs indirect realism is that there appears to be essentially no difference between saying 'object x has properties a, b, c and essentially conditional sub properties d, e, and f that are dependent on a certain interaction or observer' and saying that those properties are found in the observer. The only difference I can see is that it gives the objects 'out there' an almost magical inherent 'knowledge' (for want of a better word) of all the different ways they could be interacted with. So it seems to me to just needlessly overcomplicate the matter.
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:51 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 5:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Direct and indirect realism, are not positions on the properties of objects, but the nature of our knowledge (specifically the manner in which we arrive at it) regarding the properties of those objects. U;timately, a direct and indirect realist have no need to disagree on the properties of the object in order to express their dissenting POVs. The same object with the same properties, can be discussed by either. Focusing on the object, in the context of d vs id realism is to miss the disagreement.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 5:54 pm by emjay.)
Don't worry... I know that; despite this site being full of master logicians, debaters, and philosophers, I don't think I've seen anyone agree on anything 
Eta: this was in reply to your point now disappeared.
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:55 pm
Where would the fun be in agreeing? 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 6:04 pm by emjay.)
(January 14, 2017 at 5:51 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Direct and indirect realism, are not positions on the properties of objects, but the nature of our knowledge (specifically the manner in which we arrive at it) regarding the properties of those objects. U;timately, a direct and indirect realist have no need to disagree on the properties of the object in order to express their dissenting POVs. The same object with the same properties, can be discussed by either. Focusing on the object, in the context of d vs id realism is to miss the disagreement.
Cool... well I've only been reading about it for two days so I hope you'll forgive the misunderstanding but there will come a time when I'll be having to do an exam on this, so hopefully I'll get it soon but what you say there sounds a bit like what I was saying... that there seems no difference re the actual object and it's properties... so I agree you can both talk about it, and pretty much in the same terms.
Eta: thank you for the clarification 
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 6:04 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 6:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There doesn't -need- to be....ofc, there is more than one take on both direct and indirect realism and some people advocating for some positions in the periphery of either position do disagree on the properties of objects or if there are, indeed..sensibly, "objects". Mostly, though, the objects are not the issue of contention.
Ask two philosophers the simplest question, you'll get 3 answers (at least).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 6:17 pm
(January 14, 2017 at 6:04 pm)Khemikal Wrote: There doesn't -need- to be....ofc, there is more than one take on both direct and indirect realism and some people advocating for some positions in the periphery of either position do disagree on the properties of objects or if there are, indeed..sensibly, "objects". Mostly, though, the objects are not the issue of contention.
Ask two philosophers the simplest question, you'll get 3 answers (at least).
Yeah, I think I'll be in the camp that questions whether there is an object to speak of. That seems a very subjective and observer dependent thing to me. Is a table a table to all observers (regardless of species) at all times etc.
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 6:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2017 at 6:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If there are no objects to speak of, there is nothing to speak about. Should be a short conversation. The variance of experience is not necessarily a question of the existence of a table (or any object). A blind person does not see a table, does this mean that there is no table?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is the statement "Claims demand evidence" always true?
January 14, 2017 at 6:24 pm
Anyway the main difference between direct and indirect realism seems to be that in the former the computational power of the brain is denied... that it just becomes a direct window on reality, and that's why I suggested it was more likely to be theists that held that view.
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