What is the Point of Believing in God Without Religion?

[Drich]

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Yeah, maybe you ought to plot a time line from then to now and maybe make note of the word "schism."

I do, do you?

The concile at niceea (there were 7 total) but the was the first attempt to canonical law (what could and could not qualify as a book of the bible), more specifically out of that little get together also came the niceen creed, which if you were to plot a time line from you would note several schisms from the creed.

This would mean for some if not most today

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Question for you Drich. Do you think God can make a decision?

As in weigh up and choose between alternatives as a human would in making a decision?

No. As Humans always have a variable or unknown element which is what we are weighing out.

And if so, being God and being perfect, would that imply that he could never make a wrong/bad decision

wrong and bad are simple matters of perspective. If I am a jew and God told us to invade a town killing everything and take everything of value, then to me that would be a good decision. however if I am among those whom God told to invade... I would say that was a wrong or bad decision.

No being perfect simply mean God does not sin. Meaning it would not be wrong for God to order a destruction of a given people or town.

and therefore that he always makes the best possible choice?

The decisions God makes are not on a best or possible scale. God know what to do and when to do it so what we would identify as 'variables' would all fall like dominoes so as to come to what God wanted the outcome to be.

And being omniscient, does that include knowledge of the future and therefore imply that all his choices also factor in the future?

Yes that is how God lines up what we would see as an unknown like a domino to be fell.

Is that how you see God's decision making process...

no. What I see is spelled out by me above.

after all, it is stated that man was created in God's image;

Being created in the image of God does not make one God. A hot wheels can be created in the image of a 1967 mustang but no matter how much gas you put in one it will never be a 1967 mustang. To be made in the image of simple means you share some attributes. How much or little depends on God.

does that include emulating, sans perfection, the way he thinks?...

No, as again our thoughts are not His thoughts. Our ways are not His ways. or so says Isaiah

or do you see it as something different... maybe without decisions per se in real time or otherwise, or without human style thinking, or something else? I'm only asking this out of curiosity about your viewpoint, since you mentioned God's plan and I'm curious how you think such a plan was formed, but my question is not otherwise related to the thread.

what would you like to know of God's plan?

[Astonished]

wrong and bad are simple matters of perspective. If I am a jew and God told us to invade a town killing everything and take everything of value, then to me that would be a good decision. however if I am among those whom God told to invade... I would say that was a wrong or bad decision.

No being perfect simply mean God does not sin. Meaning it would not be wrong for God to order a destruction of a given people or town.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, sir/madam. You have officially proven incontrovertibly that religion is incapable of being utilized as a moral system. Bravo.

[vorlon13]

The 'Word' is all you have.

It is beyond clear Jesus never intended to void Jewish Law as He was the Jewish messiah, fronting for the Jewish God, to the Jewish people in fulfillment of Jewish Law.

Matthew even notes in 5:17 onward His followers need to toe the line in regards to observing the Law even better than the Jewish 'leaders' of their time.

That subsequent heretics have hijacked His religion is an abomination, yet no one need succumb to it.

[ApeNotKillApe]

I do, do you?

The concile at niceea (there were 7 total) but the was the first attempt to canonical law (what could and could not qualify as a book of the bible), more specifically out of that little get together also came the niceen creed, which if you were to plot a time line from you would note several schisms from the creed.

This would mean for some if not most today

All decided by a committee of men; the canon, the creed, the deification of Christ, all determined by political convenience and popular vote amidst plenty of infighting and deception among those men. Whatever factions arose in the centuries that followed are mutations on the belief systems that proliferated themselves and eliminated the competition. Consequently why you don't hear much from, say, the Lucifereans these days.

[Astonished]

Back in the day when I was religious I went through that period of, God without religion, before binning the whole idea of God. For me I saw the Bible and all the other books of faith, I quickly looked through, as a signpost towards the "REAL" God. I was taught that through the Holy Spirit we could know God so I took that to the logical conclusion that I didn't need any help; I can just plug right into the G to get the straight dope!

Anyway it is a GREAT way to just make shit up and support it with good feelings and wooey bullshit. You might as well sew your lips to your own asshole for all the good it does.

Yay! So that is why I worship Atheos or the Invisible Pink Unicorn and sometimes the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

excellent example of how pride comes before a great fall.

I would sumize that a humble man might come at the bible and that passage with a different approach. In that if the Holy Spirit is to teach me how am I going to recognize his voice unless I know his teachings.. After all the H/S is not the only being the 'teaches.' (Mo-ham and Joseph Smith) are two good examples. So then if I am to be taught at the right hand of God if I am to be 'plugged into God' then I must first learn to hear Him or rather identify his base content as found in the bible. Once you do that you will note that you are being lead away from the things you want in favor of that, that has been written down in scripture. and later still you will note a change in that what you truly want are the thing the bible spells out as they bring you closer to God. Why? because You get far more positive interactions, a sense of contentment and well being. Answers to petitions and prayers. in essence a direct line to God. If you have ever experienced this you will want it to continue.

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As long as they don't expect me to respect them any more than I do the Westboro Baptists, the Taliban or that church two doors down from where I live that creates a significant traffic hazard for me when I try to bike through that intersection on weekends, they can call themselves whatever the fuck they want.

If you can't defend your reason for believing in what you do any better than anyone else with an irrational system of belief, really, you're no different. They may have gotten 2+2 = 5 instead of 2+2=11 like some of the fundamentalists, but they're still wrong.

It's good you keep such a tightly closed mind on such things. I'd hate for you to have an independent thought.

Like: If the Westbrough congregation are doing things outside the scope of scripture that defines and limits what a Christian is, and yet can still be counted a christian as per the 'religion.' Then it is the word or organization of 'religion' is the problem and not a group of people that go by the same name that can legitimately stand in total opposition.

No, I think it better for you to keep your mind closed, lord know what would happen if people like you were able express and propagate new and original thought. It is just far easier to label you a bigot, make fun of you and never think of you again.

Are you fucking kidding me? The Westboro Baptists are absolutely justified in doing what they do if the only criteria is the bible. Their stance on homosexuality might actually be one of the few things in the bible that doesn't get contradicted anywhere else in it. The problem is not their interpretation of the bible, the problem is the fucking bible itself. That's why it's incapable of being reformed, there's nothing to reform. You can't make a spiked suppository not cause damage just by numbing up the hole you shove it into.

So instead of making a complete jackass of yourself and using a No True Scotsmen fallacy, get with reality and understand that your bah-ble is incapable of being 'truth' and can't, by its very nature, lead you anywhere good. I mean, really, explain how something written explicitly in that book is wrong if it's infallible, or if something later came along and reversed it, how god is supposed to be utterly perfect and never make mistakes and therefore never have to change his opinion. Go on, I dare you. Otherwise don't waste my fucking time.

[Drich]

wrong and bad are simple matters of perspective. If I am a jew and God told us to invade a town killing everything and take everything of value, then to me that would be a good decision. however if I am among those whom God told to invade... I would say that was a wrong or bad decision.

No being perfect simply mean God does not sin. Meaning it would not be wrong for God to order a destruction of a given people or town.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, sir/madam. You have officially proven incontrovertibly that religion is incapable of being utilized as a moral system. Bravo.

how so?

[Astonished]

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, sir/madam. You have officially proven incontrovertibly that religion is incapable of being utilized as a moral system. Bravo.

how so?

Well, if god says in the bible that he is incapable of lying, and right here he proves himself to by a hypocrite, do the fucking math.

[Drich]

I do, do you?

The concile at niceea (there were 7 total) but the was the first attempt to canonical law (what could and could not qualify as a book of the bible), more specifically out of that little get together also came the niceen creed, which if you were to plot a time line from you would note several schisms from the creed.

This would mean for some if not most today

All decided by a committee of men; the canon, the creed, the deification of Christ, all determined by political convenience and popular vote amidst plenty of infighting and deception among those men. Whatever factions arose in the centuries that followed are mutations on the belief systems that proliferated themselves and eliminated the competition. Consequently why you don't hear much from, say, the Lucifereans these days.

So we now go back to the word I asked you to look up.

Schism

What does that mean?

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how so?

Well, if god says in the bible that he is incapable of lying, and right here he proves himself to by a hypocrite, do the fucking math.

what does lying have to do with what you thanked me for? I never even mentioned lying.

[ApeNotKillApe]

I'm not going to list the examples of God using deception (again) but I will point it out as an option.

[emjay]

Question for you Drich. Do you think God can make a decision?

As in weigh up and choose between alternatives as a human would in making a decision?

No. As Humans always have a variable or unknown element which is what we are weighing out.

And if so, being God and being perfect, would that imply that he could never make a wrong/bad decision

wrong and bad are simple matters of perspective. If I am a jew and God told us to invade a town killing everything and take everything of value, then to me that would be a good decision. however if I am among those whom God told to invade... I would say that was a wrong or bad decision.

No being perfect simply mean God does not sin. Meaning it would not be wrong for God to order a destruction of a given people or town.

and therefore that he always makes the best possible choice?

The decisions God makes are not on a best or possible scale. God know what to do and when to do it so what we would identify as 'variables' would all fall like dominoes so as to come to what God wanted the outcome to be.

And being omniscient, does that include knowledge of the future and therefore imply that all his choices also factor in the future?

Yes that is how God lines up what we would see as an unknown like a domino to be fell.

Is that how you see God's decision making process...

no. What I see is spelled out by me above.

after all, it is stated that man was created in God's image;

Being created in the image of God does not make one God. A hot wheels can be created in the image of a 1967 mustang but no matter how much gas you put in one it will never be a 1967 mustang. To be made in the image of simple means you share some attributes. How much or little depends on God.

does that include emulating, sans perfection, the way he thinks?...

No, as again our thoughts are not His thoughts. Our ways are not His ways. or so says Isaiah

or do you see it as something different... maybe without decisions per se in real time or otherwise, or without human style thinking, or something else? I'm only asking this out of curiosity about your viewpoint, since you mentioned God's plan and I'm curious how you think such a plan was formed, but my question is not otherwise related to the thread.

what would you like to know of God's plan?

Thank you. I was just curious about your perspective on that (and developing my own) but not referring it to any particular decision... just interested in the process, as I always am. That's kind of how I would envisage it as well... as like dominoes.

But in regards to God's being perfect only in that he does not sin, I'm not sure what you mean. I take God to be the creator of the notion of sin, in the sense that without the humans he creates (or other beings... if he created angels as well), there can be no sin. In other words he sets the rules his creations have to abide by... and those rules are whatever offends him. So are you saying that he is perfect because he abides by his own rules or are you saying that sin is somehow an objective concept, separate from both God and man, that both have to abide by?