What makes your faith true?

[Cyberman]

Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

[vorlon13]

I'm having quite the case of apoplexy regarding Apostle Paul and his heresy.

Found and interesting discussion about the definition of heresy too. Quite a few of the earliest sects of Christianity were portrayed as heretical after they were displaced by 'orthodox' Christianity, however, heresy is based on knowing the truth and turning away from it with false doctrine. It is tough making the argument early early Christians receiving word of mouth witnessing from the original 12 (11 if you want Judas out) were actual heretics especially when the accusation is made by followers of Saul/Paul as they were receiving a retconned version of Christianity that was much more Paul flavored than Jesus flavored.

The actual heretics and the actual orthodoxers were defined by the winners of the doctrinal debates, the orthodoxers. Putting on my 'impartial observer glasses' of their various cases, I'm having grave concerns with the followers of Paul. Had Paul hewn closer to Jesus (and further from Paul) there wouldn't be any 'there' there. But even the Bible, edited by the winning faction, contains some pretty heady stuff, enough to devastatingly impugn Paul and his successors. Paul changing clear doctrinal points Jesus made is a very good example of heresy, not actual orthodoxy, no matter how fervently Paul wished it to be otherwise.

I used to consider "Jews for Jesus" as a ludicrous group with specious and foolish dogma, in light of Ehrman, they are far closer to True Christianity® than any Catholic or Protestant sect, schism or denom could possibly be.

This should definitely be food for lengthy (years) reflection by all contemporary folks who think they are following Christ. Paul's misconduct has shaken the very foundations of Christianity to a degree orders of magnitude more than almost any number of atheist could ever hope to.

[vorlon13]

And I don't think that is a 'weird' post for this atheist to be making. I want a clear understanding of not only the lack of positive evidence the contemporary Christians are failing to bring to the debate, but also the damning indictment of their own faith contained in their own scriptures to be another mountain they need to overcome in proving their claims.

[Asmodee]

All the little puppies and kittens!  Ooh, and laughing babies!  Laughing babies are cute.  And the sun came up today.  You think that happens by accident?

[dyresand]

because i have no faith and there for has no god(s), devil(s), demon(s), angel(s).
Only science because science unlike religion can change and do stuff for the betterment of mankind
and the earth.

[Godscreated]

Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

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Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

GC

I don't know, GC. Unless your trust in the holy scriptures is grounded in a strictly literal interpretation, the evolution debate isn't really that important. I don't see any problem with natural selection.

Have no problem with natural selection, my problem is with one species becoming another. Yes I do believe the Bible is literal except for prophecy. I believe God gives us His word as reliable facts, if He didn't and we discovered HE did not then how could He be trusted. Isn't trust what our belief is built upon.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

You don't know what the word valid means.  Your reason was convenient.  Validity and convenience are not synonymous.  

Have no problem with natural selection, my problem is with one species becoming another.

Then you have a problem with reality...we have directly observed speciation both in the lab and in the field.  It happens, there is no disputing that it happens, there is no argument or belief capable of changing the fact that it happens. To be cruel, speciation is more solidly attested to than natural selection...as speciation is an observed phenomena that selection explains. We know that speciation occurs, we've seen it happen, the theory of evolution is our best explanation as to why and how what we've seen happen....happens.

Yes I do believe the Bible is literal except for prophecy. I believe God gives us His word as reliable facts, if He didn't and we discovered HE did not then how could He be trusted.

.......what a wonderful question. I'm guessing you don't lose much sleep over it, though.

Isn't trust what our belief is built upon.

Your belief appears to be based upon denying reality, trust is an afterthought, at that point.

[Fake Messiah]

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

But how can we be close minded when we are opened for logic and evidence?

For instance this is a description of relationship Answersingenesis.org Christians have toward evolution:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

Doesn't that pretty much also describes you, GC? So when you object to any evidence in favor of your preconceived faith you keep your mind closed.

Some time in the past those religions started either by Satan's influence or by a man's own will through selfish motivation.

So let's go by this logic. Let's say other religions were started by Satan would they not be very destructive to it's followers? Would they not be urged to do violent, evil things (at least more then the god driven one like Christianity)? Would they not make it's members miserable? Since devil is the worst of the worst - prince of darkness, lord of the flies.
And yet it's not the case. Members of most other religions have a smile on their faces because they're happy in their delusions.
Take the religion of Jainism as one example. The Jains preach a doctrine of utter non-violence. The doctrine of Jainism is an objectively better guide for becoming like Martin Luther King, Jr., than the doctrine of Christianity is (he acquired his commitment to nonviolence primarily from the writings of Mohandas K. Gandhi and traveled to India to learn from them).
And yet you claim that Gandhi, a Hindu, got his doctrine of nonviolence from the devil.

You see how your claims look ridiculous and doesn't that at least make you think that your religion might be devil's deception since Janism and Hinduism never started stuff like inquisition or Crusades? Or that they're all delusions? Because Jesus did talk about people like Gandhi and that he'll throw them to Hell, so I'll be worried if I was you, belonging into religion from which God will eternally torture Gandhi.

So you admit that stuff in the bible is junk? Have you even read the bible?

Dude even you admit Bible is junk. You think Jesus was this great moral teacher because you simply ignore the immoral stuff, like the laws in OT where it is commanded by God to kill first born sons after 8 days and to kill bad children and to kill people that collect sticks on Saturday and so on. I told you what Jesus said "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." but you simply ignore it by saying:

The Jewish laws that Jesus rebuked the pharisees and priest about do not apply to Christians. Christ is the fulfillment of the prophesies and the law by living the perfect sinless life, dying on the cross and being raised from the grave.

Not apply to Christians?!! Did you not read "smallest part of the letter of the law"? Even you can not embrace the teaching of Jesus, but pick and choose what you want and then call it a Christianity, because you know most of it is junk.

[Godscreated]

@FM, I'll get to your posts as soon as I can, want you to know I'm not ignoring you.

GC

[Godscreated]

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Some time in the past those religions started either by Satan's influence or by a man's own will through selfish motivation.... Unless they find Christ and accept Him for who He is they will go to an eternal punishment.

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So there you go. As you call your religion peace inspiring you call people of the other religions as devil worshipers and that doesn't leave much sympathy toward them and you probably think of them as not much worthy of peace since they worship the devil.

That's not even close to what I said. I said they were influenced by Satan or someone through selfish motivation started those religions. Satan is not going to start a public religion where he is worshiped directly, he is the great deceiver of men, he works behind the scene. There are satanic cults and you do not see them making public displays. I wish all would come to Christ, if I thought the way you posted above then I wouldn't be here, would I.

Has it ever occurred to you that you might also be deluded? That Christianity’s effort substantially is not different from all the other religions? That is it just one more pyramid reaching for a heaven we can’t see? Don't you think you were raised to believe and have never known anything else?

No to question one. I have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, that leaves no room for other gods.
Christianity is much different than the other religions of the world. Why do you think it's attacked by all the other religions. It offers a freedom that no other religion has.
Of course l was raised to believe, my parents believed in what tube Bible teaches, I was never forced to believe they knew God would do His work with me and I would someday name a choice. Why should God allow sinful man to see His perfect heaven?

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Neither of those things have biblical support of any kind, the Bible is our guide to spiritual living, not getting wealthy or making ourselves poor, those are physical desires.

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Don't you think this is simply your views on the Bible? You know Bible is pretty contradictive? You tell me I don't know the Bible and yet you yourself have a generalized understanding of the moderate version of god, because there are in fact a handful of biblical passages that indicate monetary greed is a virtue.

I know of no teachings of scripture that promotes greed, greed is a dreadful sin it is a sin of the self which divides us from God.
By the way the scriptures do not contradict.

Here are some passages from the Bible, to whom you claim is against being greedy and having lots of money:

Proverbs (14:20)—"The poor are disliked even by their neighbors, but the rich have many friends."

Tell me where did you get this verse, l'm sure you did not search the Bible for it. Even if you did you were not interested in seeing the truth of the verse, it suited your purpose to cherry pick this verse.
This verse is in no way condoning partiality to the rich nor does it condone pushing the poor to the wayside. If the verse meant what you wanted it to mean then there would be contradiction in the Bible.
First of all the verse is telling us the nature of man and how it's wrong, this can be seen in the other verses in chapter 14. You should have read the whole chapter.
Next, the two verses below it give full meaning to verse 20.
Proverbs 14: 21 He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor.
Proverbs 14:22 Will they not go astray who devise evil? But kindness and truth will be to those who devise good.
Verses 20, 21 and 22 says nothing good or bad about the rich, they are speaking about how the poor are wrongfully treated by some people. See how easy it is to mistake a verse if you do not study the scriptures.

Proverbs (17:8)—"A bribe is a charm to the one who gives it; wherever he turns, he succeeds."

Here is where you have to study not just the Bible but must know the culture of the day but this would even apply today. Solomon wasn't condoning bribery he was making a statement about how the world works. The scriptures condemn this kind of action.
Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man receives a bribe from the bosom (secretly), to pervert the ways of justice.
Exodus 23:8 And you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the clear-sighted and subverts the cause of the just.
Matthew 28:11-15 You can read these verses for yourself, l do not want to write them all down. They are about bribing the soldiers who were at Jesus tomb.

Ecclesiastes (10:19)—"A feast is made for laughter and wine makes life merry, but money is the answer for everything."

Again you have misread and wrongly interpreted the verse, cherry picking the scriptures can make one look silly. If you had bothered to read chapter 10 you would have seen it's about the foolish nature of man and you may have then understood the verse.
The verse says that a feast brings laughter but soon the feast and laughter are gone and when the wine that made the man merry is gone so is his merriment and when a man throws money at a problem or buys things to satisfy his greed, soon the feeling of enjoyment is gone and so is that money. The scriptures recognizes that we need money to live and it teaches that greed leads men astray and into foolishness.

So what gets GC? Did you not know of these passages or do you simply pretend they don't exist?

What do you think, did I? I've read and studied the Bible but l do not remember those specific verses, however I do know what the Bible teaches about this subject so it was not hard to show you what those verses were all about.

We have priests and bishops, like Catholics (whom you say are on the right way) among others that carry golden and bejeweled crosiers and wear silken robes, swinging censers of solid gold and living in manors, preaching in churches whose estimated worth is in that of the hundreds of millions of dollars and clothes and money and they got that from reading Bible.

When pastor Jeremiah Cummings was asked about his money and wealth he simply said "when Jesus was born, they brought him gold. They brought him gold. He was not poor. He wore fine linen." So you see to some people Bible does say to amass large amounts of money.

I do not believe in pastors being paid enormous amounts of money nor do I like seeing huge amounts of money being spent on fancying up a church building, the poor and needy should be served first. I practiced that in the little churches l've belonged to and they had little money. I see great benefits of having very large churches, they can give help where the smaller churches cannot but, I hate to see any church waste money on things that are not necessary.

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I see this as a personal choice but, I think those who object to fighting should still serve in some form if our country calls them, there are many things besides fighting.

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You see it as a personal choice but they see it as the only way to serve Jesus or they'll go to hell, so for them it's not a personal choice.

I'm not sure where you got that from it would help if you explained in detail, l do not know of any such denomination.

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I can tell you this no one denomination has it all right and if you find one that believes so and teaches so they are most likely a cult.

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So you are calling Catholics a cult? They do believe and teaches they are right and all others are cults.
But you're right in one thing the world’s Christians can't even agree on precisely who Jesus is, what he wants them to do, how they are supposed to worship him, and how to get to heaven.

I do not know much about the Catholic church, so I cannot say. I do know a cult has one man or a small group of men that everyone has to answer to and that is not what the Bible teaches.
You must have misunderstood me on something because I've always said the majority of denominations agree on who Jesus is how to worship Him and the path to salvation. It is the cult type churches, which are few, that differ greatly from the rest of the denominations.

the questions you have been asking are basic things most young Christians could answer.

And yet you can't.  For instance when I asked you why would a god need to rely on such a disgusting and primitive act like killing his son (himself) to forgive us and save us from his judgment because we are all guilty of a crime we did not commit. (Adam tasted the fruit not me and you) you said nothing.

I was wondering how long it would take you to get back to this, if this entire discussion has been your attempt to bring this up then as I told you in the earlier post I will not allow you to mock me over this and I'm not the only Christian who has responded to you in this manner in this thread. I understand why, it's why I chose Jesus and you should be grateful God carried out His plan for our salvation no matter what it took.

GC