What makes your faith true?

[Cyberman]

Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

[vorlon13]

I'm having quite the case of apoplexy regarding Apostle Paul and his heresy.

Found and interesting discussion about the definition of heresy too. Quite a few of the earliest sects of Christianity were portrayed as heretical after they were displaced by 'orthodox' Christianity, however, heresy is based on knowing the truth and turning away from it with false doctrine. It is tough making the argument early early Christians receiving word of mouth witnessing from the original 12 (11 if you want Judas out) were actual heretics especially when the accusation is made by followers of Saul/Paul as they were receiving a retconned version of Christianity that was much more Paul flavored than Jesus flavored.

The actual heretics and the actual orthodoxers were defined by the winners of the doctrinal debates, the orthodoxers. Putting on my 'impartial observer glasses' of their various cases, I'm having grave concerns with the followers of Paul. Had Paul hewn closer to Jesus (and further from Paul) there wouldn't be any 'there' there. But even the Bible, edited by the winning faction, contains some pretty heady stuff, enough to devastatingly impugn Paul and his successors. Paul changing clear doctrinal points Jesus made is a very good example of heresy, not actual orthodoxy, no matter how fervently Paul wished it to be otherwise.

I used to consider "Jews for Jesus" as a ludicrous group with specious and foolish dogma, in light of Ehrman, they are far closer to True Christianity® than any Catholic or Protestant sect, schism or denom could possibly be.

This should definitely be food for lengthy (years) reflection by all contemporary folks who think they are following Christ. Paul's misconduct has shaken the very foundations of Christianity to a degree orders of magnitude more than almost any number of atheist could ever hope to.

[vorlon13]

And I don't think that is a 'weird' post for this atheist to be making. I want a clear understanding of not only the lack of positive evidence the contemporary Christians are failing to bring to the debate, but also the damning indictment of their own faith contained in their own scriptures to be another mountain they need to overcome in proving their claims.

[Asmodee]

All the little puppies and kittens!  Ooh, and laughing babies!  Laughing babies are cute.  And the sun came up today.  You think that happens by accident?

[dyresand]

because i have no faith and there for has no god(s), devil(s), demon(s), angel(s).
Only science because science unlike religion can change and do stuff for the betterment of mankind
and the earth.

[Godscreated]

Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

---

Okay to the rest of you guys I'm not carrying on a discussion about evolution with anyone, I know where you stand and you know I do not accept anything about it, so I'm done that's not what this threads about.

GC

I don't know, GC. Unless your trust in the holy scriptures is grounded in a strictly literal interpretation, the evolution debate isn't really that important. I don't see any problem with natural selection.

Have no problem with natural selection, my problem is with one species becoming another. Yes I do believe the Bible is literal except for prophecy. I believe God gives us His word as reliable facts, if He didn't and we discovered HE did not then how could He be trusted. Isn't trust what our belief is built upon.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

You don't know what the word valid means.  Your reason was convenient.  Validity and convenience are not synonymous.  

Have no problem with natural selection, my problem is with one species becoming another.

Then you have a problem with reality...we have directly observed speciation both in the lab and in the field.  It happens, there is no disputing that it happens, there is no argument or belief capable of changing the fact that it happens. To be cruel, speciation is more solidly attested to than natural selection...as speciation is an observed phenomena that selection explains. We know that speciation occurs, we've seen it happen, the theory of evolution is our best explanation as to why and how what we've seen happen....happens.

Yes I do believe the Bible is literal except for prophecy. I believe God gives us His word as reliable facts, if He didn't and we discovered HE did not then how could He be trusted.

.......what a wonderful question. I'm guessing you don't lose much sleep over it, though.

Isn't trust what our belief is built upon.

Your belief appears to be based upon denying reality, trust is an afterthought, at that point.

[Fake Messiah]

But we're the closed-minded ones, right?

You,re right but, I gave my reason why and it's valid.

GC

But how can we be close minded when we are opened for logic and evidence?

For instance this is a description of relationship Answersingenesis.org Christians have toward evolution:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

Doesn't that pretty much also describes you, GC? So when you object to any evidence in favor of your preconceived faith you keep your mind closed.

Some time in the past those religions started either by Satan's influence or by a man's own will through selfish motivation.

So let's go by this logic. Let's say other religions were started by Satan would they not be very destructive to it's followers? Would they not be urged to do violent, evil things (at least more then the god driven one like Christianity)? Would they not make it's members miserable? Since devil is the worst of the worst - prince of darkness, lord of the flies.
And yet it's not the case. Members of most other religions have a smile on their faces because they're happy in their delusions.
Take the religion of Jainism as one example. The Jains preach a doctrine of utter non-violence. The doctrine of Jainism is an objectively better guide for becoming like Martin Luther King, Jr., than the doctrine of Christianity is (he acquired his commitment to nonviolence primarily from the writings of Mohandas K. Gandhi and traveled to India to learn from them).
And yet you claim that Gandhi, a Hindu, got his doctrine of nonviolence from the devil.

You see how your claims look ridiculous and doesn't that at least make you think that your religion might be devil's deception since Janism and Hinduism never started stuff like inquisition or Crusades? Or that they're all delusions? Because Jesus did talk about people like Gandhi and that he'll throw them to Hell, so I'll be worried if I was you, belonging into religion from which God will eternally torture Gandhi.

So you admit that stuff in the bible is junk? Have you even read the bible?

Dude even you admit Bible is junk. You think Jesus was this great moral teacher because you simply ignore the immoral stuff, like the laws in OT where it is commanded by God to kill first born sons after 8 days and to kill bad children and to kill people that collect sticks on Saturday and so on. I told you what Jesus said "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." but you simply ignore it by saying:

The Jewish laws that Jesus rebuked the pharisees and priest about do not apply to Christians. Christ is the fulfillment of the prophesies and the law by living the perfect sinless life, dying on the cross and being raised from the grave.

Not apply to Christians?!! Did you not read "smallest part of the letter of the law"? Even you can not embrace the teaching of Jesus, but pick and choose what you want and then call it a Christianity, because you know most of it is junk.

[Godscreated]

@FM, I'll get to your posts as soon as I can, want you to know I'm not ignoring you.

GC

[Godscreated]