Debate: God Exists

[Neo-Scholastic]

And what makes you think whatever your atheistic position is that it any more logical than Christian one.

Science.

Very weak stance on your part. Science works because the world is intelligible and human reason is generally reliable. Both depend on an uncontingent transcendent source. In contrast to this you have what? Brute assertions.

[Nonpareil]

Science works because the world is intelligible and human reason is generally reliable. Both depend on an uncontingent transcendent source.

No.

[KUSA]

Science.

Very weak stance on your part. Science works because the world is intelligible and human reason is generally reliable. Both depend on an uncontingent transcendent source. In contrast to this you have what? Brute assertions.

A theist accusing an Atheist of brute assertions? How laughable.

[Drich]

It is my awareness of how it works on people's minds that prevents me from allowing it to work on myself.

I showed you how it was working on you!

Because you are so egar to ascribe this method on to everyone who doesn't think like you do, you tend to ignore specifics that would disqualify your placebo diagnosis, BUT because you force the diagnosis it gives you a false sense of intellectual superiority or 'wellness' to people who oppose you . That my ironically doomed thundarian is the placebo effect working it's way through your little brain.

But yes, I am aware that some people go through those motions that you outlined... and I keep saying that it is not a trustworthy method, given the trappings that our own human minds can easily trick themselves into.

Too bad more people are not lke you.. Amune due to superior intellect.

If God is all powerful, and He says meet me here in this book first... Why would I go out into the world looking for God? Or are you saying this is how you proofed your anti God theory? You went to the place The bible says God isn't demanded God to show up, when He didn't you felt you did not need the bible?

IF.... mighty "if" you have there.

You're working with the premise that such a God exists.

moron... You should be asking "WHY ARE YOU WorkiNG FROM A PRIMISE THAT GOD EXISTS!!!"

The answer is one you are hidding from with moronic logic. I followed the instructions and found the God of the bible. Before I knew the bible before I knew religion before I knew to know any of it and He has remained a constant!!

So again retard IF God exists and says look here why hide and look for him (in science or failed logic) where He is not???

Truth because it scares the Hell out of you that I and 2000 years of followers before me are indeed tlling you the absolute truth.

Again Why would an almighty God meet you on your terms??? Especially when it cost Him His son to provide you with His own terms?

I'd be like f-you dude. My son died so I could tell you meet me here! I will see you damned before I meet you on your terms, and dance a gig for you. Why should God be any different?

I ask you "how would you know that it exists?"

Even if you are too stupid to know that you are standing before God, you body automatically knows what to do. You drop to your knees, if not to your face in the ground and you confess He is God. If you were wrong and it was an angel theyll tell you "hey stupid get up youre embarrassing both of us, i'm just a messenger." If he doesn't tell you to get up then try and dig a little deeper with your face.

And you may tell me "it's in this book" or "I experienced him" or whatever...
Then I will have to ask if whoever wrote the book experienced him in the same way you did, if yes, then what does it say about both your human minds?

And I'd tell you no. Those in the OT experienced God very differently than the new. And in the new we all experience the Holy Spirit differently. It simply depends on how you honor what you have been given.

Should we assume the experience is an accurate representation of reality, or would it be safer to say that your minds work pretty much in the same way when presented with similar stimuli?
While mine (and many others' who are in a minority) works in a slightly different way?

Sorry sport still trying to shoe horn in your placebo garbage i see.

Here's the thing Paul spends alot of time talking about how God interacts with us on our very own unique levels. He compares us like a body that Jesus is the head over. Meaning we/The body have different functions in the church and not to expect that we are all treated the same. After all the hand will have different use than an eye would or an ear could not taste. We are encouraged to try and understand where we all fit in the body of believers and try and not judge those who's function is different than out own..

So no our experiences can be wildly different with God. The only common thread is that God knows exactly who we are and has promised to give us exactly what we need to establish and maintain our faith.

It is clear that whoever wrote the book you use was also within a highly religious society. So the same sort of stimuli to considering a benevolent god may have been in place... cue in the Essene society.

I see a lill problem with your hypothesis... The God of the bible does not claim to be Benevolent. Matter of fact there are those living right now in whom God hates. If this is true, then what does it say about your ill informed generic hypothesis?

Where did such a notion come from? well, that's been lost to time, so we can do no better than speculate.
However, I see a few options:
- If there is such a god who wants us to know about it and acknowledge it and praise it and do all the things in the bible...

And if this was NEVER EVER the Goal of the God of the bible?

then how did that god make itself known to mankind, in the first place?... in a pre-bible, pre-written word world, how did it do it?

The same way he is doing it now.
He presents Himself in front of the worthy.

If he did it once (or more than once), then what's keeping it from doing the same thing for all of us?

Nothing, except some of us are hidding from Him. He says meet me here, you look for Him in places you know He is not.

I wouldn't mind knowing if there is indeed a benevolent creator god.

But what if He is not benevolent?

I'm curious about it, actually. I want to know.
But I refuse to let my brain get self-deluded into belief.

brother you are all ready hip deep in self delusion. the fact that you keep pushing placebos on to situations that it does not fit.

- If there is no such god, then it was clearly made up, through exploitation of our minds' flaws, even if unwittingly... the notion was conceived and was pleasant enough to flourish and evolve.

Just because your version of what you think God should be does not exists, what makes you think God can't exist?

Why would God need you permission to be different than what you want Him to be?

- If there is a god that created this Universe, but doesn't really care about what goes on here, in this tiny speck of dust in a lost corner of the vast Universe... then... why worry?

What if He does... but 'cares for different things?' Again what makes your morality the universal standard from which God must watch over and govern man?

When you take yourself from the axis from which the universe rotates you will soon discover that there is nothing that says God can't exist, only God does exist in the way I currently understand.

Wow.... you were beating people? Damn, that's evil. I'm glad you found the bible, then. Stick with it! Really!

Live by the sword die by the sword kind of world it was.

I was placed before Jesus on my judgement looked into his eye, got a sample of the love and what Heaven was about, then I experienced a version of Hell I never knew existed. Up until that point I had only known Dante' Inferno version of Hell. Here is where you placeebo theory gets it wrong for me. In what I experienced (A few minutes) totally undermind everything I knew of Jesus, the Judgement, Heaven Hell the purpose of eternal life, death, and redemption. So much so for the first few days I thought everything was made up because in all of my 'church experience' nothing lined up with what I saw... Then I began to read a bible I never picked up before and there  in the bible did I begin to check off all the things I saw and experienced.

Again, all the same and much much more can be yours to experience for yourself. To experience God, to find out everything you know of God to be wrong, and to learn as you read.

I posted a thread like 5 years ago on this website that went into further detail, which throws you baby out with your placebo bath water without even tryng to. Meaning I was not making an counter placebo arguement I was simply pointing out the order in which I began to learn about God. Which again is the complete opposite of how you think it happens.

Wanna see the bathwater come back?

It depends.

What did Buddhism teach you?

That white people thought it was demon worship and would beat you for worshiping idols, but if you wanted your mom's love you did what she said do. which usually meant hiding incense

Where were you brought up? Korea?

Florida, in like farm land and woods.

What's the story with that korean jesus from your mum?

MOM was converted by korean baptist, so we went to a non english speaking korean church. Where I was hated more, for being a 1/2 breed than in public school by whites.

I seriously doubt that you can honestly say that you had never heard about the concept of hell being an afterlife without god, given all the religious influences you were having.

Dante' hell sport. That's all i ever knew as that is what this korean church taught, and it was pretty close to my dad's understanding as well. Not exactly a reader at this point as I could read into my 20s, and we simply did not talk about God in the house.

Going into this dream had no idea of gnashing teeth, and what the big deal was, had no idea hell fire was not fire, had no idea how a dead person was to feel pain, had no idea how the judgement takes place, had no idea Satan did not run Hell, Had no idea we did not burn forever. Had no idea we are consumed/eaten by hell, That we are destroyed by Hell and on and on and on.

You may have not picked up on it, but just heard and shrugged it off, until years later when you dreamed that dream.

Or i spent the next 20 years vetting my experience with the bible as I would come across passages when Jesus would describe one little corner here or John of patmos would describe another aspect over there.

poop on my experience all you like, but here's the thing. My experience is open to all. It was what I needed and God gave it to me. You may need to go a ltle deeper in hell or maybe you may need to win the lottery. I don't know nor do I persume to know. All I do know is God is willing to give us all exactly what we need to start and establish a solid belief. If we simply honor what He has given us. I point back again to doubting thomas. He said he was not going to believe that Christ rose from the dead till he put his fingers in the nail holes in his hands and his hand in the spear hole in his side. Low and behold Thomas Got exactly what he needed. God again with A/S/K is will here to do the same thing if you simply honor his request as Thomas and the others did. (Meet Him on His terms and not on theirs)

Imagine have a real prophetic experience of something you dont know anything about and then find it outlined in the bible

On the other hand, going back to one of the possibilities I mentioned above, your mind could have worked in a similar way to the mind of whoever came up with the concept of hell you then found in the bible.

Or God could have simply sent me there to peer though the gate to come back and tell you what I saw.

Coincidences like this happen. Be honest, is this not a possibility?

Yeah, goto sleep dream about experiencing a version of Hell most people today don't even know about, but is 100% biblically accurate, with little to no knoweledge of it.

Happens all the time...

Again, this was for me. it was what I needed. God is offering you what you need. You may not know what it is (i'm hopping God sends you to Hell) but you may need to win the lottery idk. he point being it is a little harder to just shake something like this off when you are absolutly sure you couldn't have stacked the deck. Or you are so far out in the ocean that you are beyond lost, beyond hope, so when you are brought back you know it was God who did it.

"Correlation does not imply causation" is an often heard phrase... but it does hint towards causation, most of the times.
Concerning the way the human minds works, it gets tricky, due to the highly complex nature of the neural network in our brains.
I prefer to side with human brains that work in a similar way among themselves.

Here's the other thing sport. No one specific place is the complete description of Hell Found. Jesus doesn't even rock a singular description of Hell.That is why it took me 20+ years to vet all that I saw and felt.

If you took ALLLLL of what the bible says over it many many authors, and compiled it. That is what I experienced in a single night. Not too bad for an illiterate atheist.

Brains that can be similarly fooled, or tricked, or deluded into a particular set of conclusions.
You prefer to think there's an external cause to such similarity in conclusions.

Then please identify an internal source.

If there is a god, why would I think the way I do?

We don't think the same moron!
Your question should be how can we think as He does: The answer, the same holy Spirit that inspired the bibe is poured out on s when we A/S/K

If there isn't a god, why would you think the way you do?

I do not honestly know. Nothing in my whole life's experience prepared me for that. Which again was only the beginning of all the things God has done for me.

Sure he does... you were even beating up people. You can do anything that your body can physically perform and no god will interfere. They all let you do whatever you want.

Paul, arguably the greatest Apostle, Murdered Christians till Jesus Himself stopped Him.

Why do you say "now"?
Were you ever prevented from treating others that way?

Because I do not have to treat people with benovelence or how you would normally think a Chistian is to treat someone. What limits me is not the rules of kindness but the limits of how it is i wish to be treated.

Would I have been an "Earth is flat-er"?... maybe... but if people had shown me or told me about how they came to the conclusion of Earth's roundness, I would understand how that works and do the experiment myself, or not.. just run it in my mind and see how it can pan out.
See how it has zero dependence on any of my faulty brain's inner workings and go with it.

seriously???
That is what you would do today, because the flock says do those things! What happens when the flock says stand firm in what you believe and do not approach a given situation anyother way!

You know kinda like how you will not meet God on His terms...

Translation: you mock things others believe that you have not accepted for yourself.

Do I mock thee?

Do I mock thee... use thee alot do you? King James english is what, the version of english you speak when not jabbering in your native tongue?

I keep asking "why do you think this?", "how do you think things happened?", "don't people tend to behave this way?"
I'm trying to get you to think about how people can produce the whole experience of god...

And I'm trying to get you to see that experiencing God is not a uniform thing.

but, since I read that beating up people bit of your life, I'm considering just letting you be a christian apologist, so you don't go back to that.

Beating people up was apart of my atheistic "outreach" It's the same thing you guys do here, It's just I had the sanctification of using my fists and feet.

Come Drich, you had a dream of something you may very well have overheard but not remember until that dream. And you tell me my approach can fail?
Well... I know that I never remember any of my dreams... so... maybe that's for the best.

A dream is where it may have started. but it is certainly not the last time I heard from God. Check out my messenger/message thread i did 5 years ago, There are so many down right maricolous things I've been privy to I feel shame/bad when I share them. Even now i hesitate Let's just say there is nothing I can't ask for, but there are many things I won't ask for, because i can foresee the costs. My prayers tend to center around God's will being done God's timing. (Untill i get squeezed too hard then I ask for what i think will make things better.)

Again not a Drich only thing. This is offered to all of us if we simply honor God and what He has given us

The proud/Chaff God is trying to seperate from the rest by mandating you bow your head and bend you knee before He do anything for you.

Or if you earnestly tried at some point then a 2 out of 3-er

Why is that god so like a king that would require its subjects to bow their heads and bend their knees?

Not a king thing, it a monkey see monkey want to do like God thing

Do you require your cat to do that? (you do have a cat, right? or was it a dog? I forget...)

Damn right. My will: Dog will honor me by being tame which means: dog does not eat shoes, poops and pees outside, does not drink from toilet, does not eat my food when I get up from table. that is an example Dan's will being done in my house. If you do not have similar rules with your dog, and it's dog's will being done then you are a fool! we all have a similar desire to be honored in our homes and our will being carried out. Now just imagine your 'home' being all of creation.

Imagine you were the creator of the Universe... and in that Universe, among 10 billion galaxies, there is one galaxy that, like many others, has some 10 billion stars.... and there is one star around which travels a planet, on the surface of which there many living beings.... but a particular species of them has intelligence... and you want them to bow down to you, because you gave them that intelligence... huh?!
Why would you care?! What does it matter to you that those people assume you exist, bow down, and only then do you present yourself to them... but only to a few, in dreams or some coincidence-ridden experience...

Wow, some people I guess are just born leaders while others just follow... Do you know how any times I've heard that question? do you know how many times I've heard most of your objections before.. Not from you, just from the guy taking his turn in your position? You all think the same or have been programmed the same way.

Let's say that poor stupid Drich was the creator over everything for a moment and there are 10,000,000,000 galaxies and each one had 10 billion stars and each star had an average of 10 planets. Then on one planet i was kicking out potential servants. Not all, as some were lazy assholes who need to be put to death in the worst way possible.. What this Creator see is a labor pool being created or rather maybe a pool of star fleet cadets being created to literally explore what I've created.

It boggles the mind. how limited some of you are.

A theory that posits that the human mind is responsible for all religions that have ever existed on the face of this planet?
Let me know when it falls flat...

It's fallen flat sport.
Bible based Christian is unlike any other religion on the planet.

A lazy mind?
Hive mind?
Have you ever been in a religious temple during a religious ceremony? That's hive mind-like.
"You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."
Well, luckily, we are now equipped with science to properly resist...

how is science not a 'hive mind' or a literal collective???

[Mister Agenda]

Anyone who is thinking of complaining about how I break up posts should look at Drich's first.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Yeah, Drich, cut it out. I'm interesting in what you have to say but it's hard to follow a string of one-liners.

[PETE_ROSE]

Pause buddy. Remember to breath. You seem agitated. Have a beer and gather your thoughts my friend.

[pocaracas]

Wow.... mega post, man!
There really is no need to use words like moron... do you see me calling you such names?

It is my awareness of how it works on people's minds that prevents me from allowing it to work on myself.

I showed you how it was working on you!

Because you are so egar to ascribe this method on to everyone who doesn't think like you do, you tend to ignore specifics that would disqualify your placebo diagnosis, BUT because you force the diagnosis it gives you a false sense of intellectual superiority or 'wellness' to people who oppose you . That my ironically doomed thundarian is the placebo effect working it's way through your little brain.

So.... just to get this clear, you're saying that avoiding known mental flaws is something that should be discouraged... is this right?

If God is all powerful, and He says meet me here in this book first... Why would I go out into the world looking for God? Or are you saying this is how you proofed your anti God theory? You went to the place The bible says God isn't demanded God to show up, when He didn't you felt you did not need the bible?

IF.... mighty "if" you have there.

You're working with the premise that such a God exists.

moron... You should be asking "WHY ARE YOU WorkiNG FROM A PRIMISE THAT GOD EXISTS!!!"

The answer is one you are hidding from with moronic logic. I followed the instructions and found the God of the bible. Before I knew the bible before I knew religion before I knew to know any of it and He has remained a constant!!

So again retard IF God exists and says look here why hide and look for him (in science or failed logic) where He is not???

Truth because it scares the Hell out of you that I and 2000 years of followers before me are indeed tlling you the absolute truth.

Again Why would an almighty God meet you on your terms??? Especially when it cost Him His son to provide you with His own terms?

I'd be like f-you dude. My son died so I could tell you meet me here! I will see you damned before I meet you on your terms, and dance a gig for you. Why should God be any different?

But the thing is that there are people who follow another sets of instructions and find other gods. And swear by those just as much as you do.
When confronted with that, how accurate can those instructions be?
Kinda makes you wonder if those instructions are just the result of some people's observations of how to reach a meditative state... or something like it...

"IF God exists and says look here"... wait... how did that God say anything? When?
I think you have the whole story a bit too mixed up.
Far before there was a bible... far before there was an OT, there were people believing in whole different sets of gods. How did they come to that state of affairs?
Did they follow some instructions? Were those false? What was the real God doing? oh, mankind didn't even have writing capabilities, so he couldn't convey his message?! seems like a weak excuse for a god...

Before any son allegedly died... before your bible's story... before... what were the terms? Have they changed?

God would be different, because he wouldn't be a puny human, like yourself.
God wouldn't be so butthurt, insulted, arrogant and petty.... or would it be? You guys do call it a He, as if it's a human male, so... I guess, much like the classic Greek pantheon, the Christian god shares in on human emotions, human failings, human...

I ask you "how would you know that it exists?"

Even if you are too stupid to know that you are standing before God, you body automatically knows what to do. You drop to your knees, if not to your face in the ground and you confess He is God. If you were wrong and it was an angel theyll tell you "hey stupid get up youre embarrassing both of us, i'm just a messenger." If he doesn't tell you to get up then try and dig a little deeper with your face.

No.... that makes absolutely no sense.
There is no reason whatsoever to drop to anyone's knees.
Only rulers who crave for the adoration of their minions enjoy such displays. Again, you are fashioning your god in the likes of a human ruler.

Should we assume the experience is an accurate representation of reality, or would it be safer to say that your minds work pretty much in the same way when presented with similar stimuli?
While mine (and many others' who are in a minority) works in a slightly different way?

Sorry sport still trying to shoe horn in your placebo garbage i see.

Here's the thing Paul spends alot of time talking about how God interacts with us on our very own unique levels. He compares us like a body that Jesus is the head over. Meaning we/The body have different functions in the church and not to expect that we are all treated the same. After all the hand will have different use than an eye would or an ear could not taste. We are encouraged to try and understand where we all fit in the body of believers and try and not judge those who's function is different than out own..

So no our experiences can be wildly different with God. The only common thread is that God knows exactly who we are and has promised to give us exactly what we need to establish and maintain our faith.

Why should I care about whatever it is that Paul says about God?
You're just telling me that your dream is on par with Paul's... that whatever happened in your brain is similar to whatever happened in Paul's.
No gods required... but the belief is required, yes.

It is clear that whoever wrote the book you use was also within a highly religious society. So the same sort of stimuli to considering a benevolent god may have been in place... cue in the Essene society.

I see a lill problem with your hypothesis... The God of the bible does not claim to be Benevolent. Matter of fact there are those living right now in whom God hates. If this is true, then what does it say about your ill informed generic hypothesis?

Well then, "God hates"... that right there is the worst selling point of the whole deal.
More human emotion being posited on the untraceable entity.

Where did such a notion come from? well, that's been lost to time, so we can do no better than speculate.
However, I see a few options:
- If there is such a god who wants us to know about it and acknowledge it and praise it and do all the things in the bible...

And if this was NEVER EVER the Goal of the God of the bible?

Then what are you doing here?!
What are all preachers doing in this world?!
If there is a god and it doesn't care that we acknowledge it, then why should we care?

then how did that god make itself known to mankind, in the first place?... in a pre-bible, pre-written word world, how did it do it?

The same way he is doing it now.
He presents Himself in front of the worthy.

I wonder if you can see how that godly plan could render those worthy as fraudulent?
Even if, and I must always stress this, even if those people are utterly convinced that they are actually conveying a godly message... they may very well not be actually getting such a message from any god.
Just like your dream may very likely have not come from any exterior source.... but you are utterly convinced that it did and convey that message as a true one because you feel it to be true.

If he did it once (or more than once), then what's keeping it from doing the same thing for all of us?

Nothing, except some of us are hidding from Him. He says meet me here, you look for Him in places you know He is not.

No.... I don't look for him.
Why should I look for him?
You just told me above that he does want us to acknowledge him. I can live with that.

I wouldn't mind knowing if there is indeed a benevolent creator god.

But what if He is not benevolent?

I would like to know, too.
But not believe. Know.

- If there is no such god, then it was clearly made up, through exploitation of our minds' flaws, even if unwittingly... the notion was conceived and was pleasant enough to flourish and evolve.

Just because your version of what you think God should be does not exists, what makes you think God can't exist?

Why would God need you permission to be different than what you want Him to be?

Whatever god is, I want to know... but I refuse to be influenced by human-borne sources of information. Now what?

- If there is a god that created this Universe, but doesn't really care about what goes on here, in this tiny speck of dust in a lost corner of the vast Universe... then... why worry?

What if He does... but 'cares for different things?' Again what makes your morality the universal standard from which God must watch over and govern man?

When you take yourself from the axis from which the universe rotates you will soon discover that there is nothing that says God can't exist, only God does exist in the way I currently understand.

If he cares, then I'd like to know it from him.
If he has requirements for communication that look too much like self-delusion, then I don't care to find out anything from him.

Wow.... you were beating people? Damn, that's evil. I'm glad you found the bible, then. Stick with it! Really!

Live by the sword die by the sword kind of world it was.

In Florida?... The retirement corner of the US? The state with the highest average age?
Sounds like you had something wrong, there... got mixed up with the wrong crew, huh?

What did Buddhism teach you?

That white people thought it was demon worship and would beat you for worshiping idols, but if you wanted your mom's love you did what she said do. which usually meant hiding incense

Where were you brought up? Korea?

Florida, in like farm land and woods.

What's the story with that korean jesus from your mum?

MOM was converted by korean baptist, so we went to a non english speaking korean church. Where I was hated more, for being a 1/2 breed than in public school by whites.

That's messed up... Seriously... how were you hated at that church and at school?
What do you mean 1/2 breed? From the photos I've seen of you, you look like a standard Caucasian male.

Brought up in Florida, I'd expect you to have been presented with multiple versions of Christianity, multiple versions of hell... most very incomplete and somewhat skewed... but definitely not all representations of Dante's Inferno.

I seriously doubt that you can honestly say that you had never heard about the concept of hell being an afterlife without god, given all the religious influences you were having.

Dante' hell sport. That's all i ever knew as that is what this korean church taught, and it was pretty close to my dad's understanding as well. Not exactly a reader at this point as I could read into my 20s, and we simply did not talk about God in the house.

Going into this dream had no idea of gnashing teeth, and what the big deal was, had no idea hell fire was not fire, had no idea how a dead person was to feel pain, had no idea how the judgement takes place, had no idea Satan did not run Hell, Had no idea we did not burn forever. Had no idea we are consumed/eaten by hell, That we are destroyed by Hell and on and on and on.

Well after your 20's? (is that right?)
End you'd been kept in totally isolation, only hearing about that church's hell?
Please?... I know you think your story makes sense... and I believe you if you say it does... but, from where I stand, it looks like you have some might plot holes.

You may have not picked up on it, but just heard and shrugged it off, until years later when you dreamed that dream.

Or i spent the next 20 years vetting my experience with the bible as I would come across passages when Jesus would describe one little corner here or John of patmos would describe another aspect over there.

poop on my experience all you like, but here's the thing. My experience is open to all. It was what I needed and God gave it to me. You may need to go a ltle deeper in hell or maybe you may need to win the lottery. I don't know nor do I persume to know. All I do know is God is willing to give us all exactly what we need to start and establish a solid belief. If we simply honor what He has given us. I point back again to doubting thomas. He said he was not going to believe that Christ rose from the dead till he put his fingers in the nail holes in his hands and his hand in the spear hole in his side. Low and behold Thomas Got exactly what he needed. God again with A/S/K is will here to do the same thing if you simply honor his request as Thomas and the others did. (Meet Him on His terms and not on theirs)

Imagine have a real prophetic experience of something you dont know anything about and then find it outlined in the bible

Imagine have a dream similar to so many others!!! And totally independently from them all!!
Example: Sleep paralysis

I'll accept that what you had was not sleep paralysis, but it may have been something of the sort.... something similar... I have no idea what... I'm not a psychologist... but something merely mental, something which many others also go through.
Can you see this as possible?

Coincidences like this happen. Be honest, is this not a possibility?

Yeah, goto sleep dream about experiencing a version of Hell most people today don't even know about, but is 100% biblically accurate, with little to no knoweledge of it.

Happens all the time...

Again, this was for me. it was what I needed. God is offering you what you need. You may not know what it is (i'm hopping God sends you to Hell) but you may need to win the lottery idk. he point being it is a little harder to just shake something like this off when you are absolutly sure you couldn't have stacked the deck. Or you are so far out in the ocean that you are beyond lost, beyond hope, so when you are brought back you know it was God who did it.

In 7 billion people, it is bound to happen quite often, I guess...
Most may be dismissed as mere dreams... some will spark the same fervor as you. And it is possible that one historical figure to whom such a thing happened was precisely that Paul.

"Correlation does not imply causation" is an often heard phrase... but it does hint towards causation, most of the times.
Concerning the way the human minds works, it gets tricky, due to the highly complex nature of the neural network in our brains.
I prefer to side with human brains that work in a similar way among themselves.

Here's the other thing sport. No one specific place is the complete description of Hell Found. Jesus doesn't even rock a singular description of Hell.That is why it took me 20+ years to vet all that I saw and felt.

If you took ALLLLL of what the bible says over it many many authors, and compiled it. That is what I experienced in a single night. Not too bad for an illiterate atheist.

Confirmation Bias? Are you discarding the bits that don't fit, while taking in the bits that fit? Or finding ways to adapt what initially seems not to fit, into justifying a mechanism by which it does fit?
I'm just asking. How can it have taken 20 years?!

Brains that can be similarly fooled, or tricked, or deluded into a particular set of conclusions.
You prefer to think there's an external cause to such similarity in conclusions.

Then please identify an internal source.

The human brain.... somewhere, still unknown to us humans.

If there is a god, why would I think the way I do?

We don't think the same moron!
Your question should be how can we think as He does: The answer, the same holy Spirit that inspired the bibe is poured out on s when we A/S/K

Ciruclar logic? A/S/K from the bible is required to get the holy spirit to inspire the writing of the bible?

No, we don't think the same... I've noticed.
But that was not the question, was it?

If there isn't a god, why would you think the way you do?

I do not honestly know. Nothing in my whole life's experience prepared me for that. Which again was only the beginning of all the things God has done for me.

Try to think about that possibility... can you? please?
I've been trying to provide you with "hints" of that possibility looks like... you could try to work with them, or conjure up your own version, with your own rules... just try.

Sure he does... you were even beating up people. You can do anything that your body can physically perform and no god will interfere. They all let you do whatever you want.

Paul, arguably the greatest Apostle, Murdered Christians till Jesus Himself stopped Him.

The history here is a bit fuzzy, for me... wasn't Paul the only one who wasn't really an apostle? And "became" one later on?....

Why do you say "now"?
Were you ever prevented from treating others that way?

Because I do not have to treat people with benovelence or how you would normally think a Chistian is to treat someone. What limits me is not the rules of kindness but the limits of how it is i wish to be treated.

Were you wishing to be beaten up, too, back then?

I don't think I've ever wished to be beaten up... I don't think the majority of people would wish that upon themselves. Hence, my empathy leads me to consider that people beating up other people is wrong.

Would I have been an "Earth is flat-er"?... maybe... but if people had shown me or told me about how they came to the conclusion of Earth's roundness, I would understand how that works and do the experiment myself, or not.. just run it in my mind and see how it can pan out.
See how it has zero dependence on any of my faulty brain's inner workings and go with it.

seriously???
That is what you would do today, because the flock says do those things! What happens when the flock says stand firm in what you believe and do not approach a given situation anyother way!

You know kinda like how you will not meet God on His terms...

If "his terms" didn't look so much like self-delusion, maybe I would.
But all descriptions provided make that god look like a man-made construct accessible through self-deluding mechanisms.

Translation: you mock things others believe that you have not accepted for yourself.

Do I mock thee?

Do I mock thee... use thee alot do you? King James english is what, the version of english you speak when not jabbering in your native tongue?

Would you rather I use my native tongue's archaic form?

I keep asking "why do you think this?", "how do you think things happened?", "don't people tend to behave this way?"
I'm trying to get you to think about how people can produce the whole experience of god...

And I'm trying to get you to see that experiencing God is not a uniform thing.

Aye, I know that.
You came to your experience from one side... most people get there by being taught one single thing by their parents.

but, since I read that beating up people bit of your life, I'm considering just letting you be a christian apologist, so you don't go back to that.

Beating people up was apart of my atheistic "outreach" It's the same thing you guys do here, It's just I had the sanctification of using my fists and feet.

You know... that makes you sound like a very dangerous person.
I've met various people from this forum, but I don't think I would want to meet you in person. I'd honestly fear for my physical well-being.

Come Drich, you had a dream of something you may very well have overheard but not remember until that dream. And you tell me my approach can fail?
Well... I know that I never remember any of my dreams... so... maybe that's for the best.

A dream is where it may have started. but it is certainly not the last time I heard from God. Check out my messenger/message thread i did 5 years ago, There are so many down right maricolous things I've been privy to I feel shame/bad when I share them. Even now i hesitate Let's just say there is nothing I can't ask for, but there are many things I won't ask for, because i can foresee the costs. My prayers tend to center around God's will being done God's timing. (Untill i get squeezed too hard then I ask for what i think will make things better.)

Again not a Drich only thing. This is offered to all of us if we simply honor God and what He has given us

I don't think I've ever come across that thread, but I've heard a few of your stories.
I disagree on the miraculous nature of the events, but I acknowledge that some were extremely lucky for you.

The proud/Chaff God is trying to seperate from the rest by mandating you bow your head and bend you knee before He do anything for you.

Or if you earnestly tried at some point then a 2 out of 3-er

Why is that god so like a king that would require its subjects to bow their heads and bend their knees?

Not a king thing, it a monkey see monkey want to do like God thing

LOL!
Jump, monkey! Roll lover!!

Do you require your cat to do that? (you do have a cat, right? or was it a dog? I forget...)

Damn right. My will: Dog will honor me by being tame which means: dog does not eat shoes, poops and pees outside, does not drink from toilet, does not eat my food when I get up from table. that is an example Dan's will being done in my house. If you do not have similar rules with your dog, and it's dog's will being done then you are a fool! we all have a similar desire to be honored in our homes and our will being carried out. Now just imagine your 'home' being all of creation.

A dog... do you require that dog to bow down to you? Or simply to comply with a few simple commands that you had to teach him yourself?

Imagine you were the creator of the Universe... and in that Universe, among 10 billion galaxies, there is one galaxy that, like many others, has some 10 billion stars.... and there is one star around which travels a planet, on the surface of which there many living beings.... but a particular species of them has intelligence... and you want them to bow down to you, because you gave them that intelligence... huh?!
Why would you care?! What does it matter to you that those people assume you exist, bow down, and only then do you present yourself to them... but only to a few, in dreams or some coincidence-ridden experience...

Wow, some people I guess are just born leaders while others just follow... Do you know how any times I've heard that question? do you know how many times I've heard most of your objections before.. Not from you, just from the guy taking his turn in your position? You all think the same or have been programmed the same way.

Lots of times, I reckon. Still not enough to produce the spark of thought.

Let's say that poor stupid Drich was the creator over everything for a moment and there are 10,000,000,000 galaxies and each one had 10 billion stars and each star had an average of 10 planets. Then on one planet i was kicking out potential servants. Not all, as some were lazy assholes who need to be put to death in the worst way possible.. What this Creator see is a labor pool being created or rather maybe a pool of star fleet cadets being created to literally explore what I've created.

It boggles the mind. how limited some of you are.

Don't you think I, as a potential cadet, would like to know who it was I was serving? Or should I just mindlessly accept whatever some guy wrote some time ago about that Drich?

A theory that posits that the human mind is responsible for all religions that have ever existed on the face of this planet?
Let me know when it falls flat...

It's fallen flat sport.
Bible based Christian is unlike any other religion on the planet.

Each religion is unlike all others...
That is no reasoning to why you say it's fallen flat...

A lazy mind?
Hive mind?
Have you ever been in a religious temple during a religious ceremony? That's hive mind-like.
"You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."
Well, luckily, we are now equipped with science to properly resist...

how is science not a 'hive mind' or a literal collective???

Science is every man for himself... each trying to one-up whatever came before.
Certainly, some ideas are regarded overall as agreeing with reality as far as is observable and are then accepted by most scientists... and then built upon.

How is religion not a 'hive mind' or a literal collective?

[Mister Agenda]

It's funny how following religion leads in thousands of different directions, split upon split upon split, until there are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone; while science, only concerned with modeling reality as accurately as possible, leads towards consensus. I can see why someone used to people ordering their lives on what other people say they got in messages from God (or Vishnu or Gitchi Manitou or Whoever) might find the general agreement among scientists and people who accept science as eerily similar compared to theists, who can be Mormons, Pentecostals, Shintoists, Hindus, and on and on and on.

[Harry Nevis]

It is my awareness of how it works on people's minds that prevents me from allowing it to work on myself.

I showed you how it was working on you!

Because you are so egar to ascribe this method on to everyone who doesn't think like you do, you tend to ignore specifics that would disqualify your placebo diagnosis, BUT because you force the diagnosis it gives you a false sense of intellectual superiority or 'wellness' to people who oppose you . That my ironically doomed thundarian is the placebo effect working it's way through your little brain.

But yes, I am aware that some people go through those motions that you outlined... and I keep saying that it is not a trustworthy method, given the trappings that our own human minds can easily trick themselves into.

Too bad more people are not lke you.. Amune due to superior intellect.

If God is all powerful, and He says meet me here in this book first... Why would I go out into the world looking for God? Or are you saying this is how you proofed your anti God theory? You went to the place The bible says God isn't demanded God to show up, when He didn't you felt you did not need the bible?

IF.... mighty "if" you have there.

You're working with the premise that such a God exists.

moron... You should be asking "WHY ARE YOU WorkiNG FROM A PRIMISE THAT GOD EXISTS!!!"

The answer is one you are hidding from with moronic logic. I followed the instructions and found the God of the bible. Before I knew the bible before I knew religion before I knew to know any of it and He has remained a constant!!

So again retard IF God exists and says look here why hide and look for him (in science or failed logic) where He is not???

Truth because it scares the Hell out of you that I and 2000 years of followers before me are indeed tlling you the absolute truth.

Again Why would an almighty God meet you on your terms??? Especially when it cost Him His son to provide you with His own terms?

I'd be like f-you dude. My son died so I could tell you meet me here! I will see you damned before I meet you on your terms, and dance a gig for you. Why should God be any different?

I ask you "how would you know that it exists?"

Even if you are too stupid to know that you are standing before God, you body automatically knows what to do. You drop to your knees, if not to your face in the ground and you confess He is God. If you were wrong and it was an angel theyll tell you "hey stupid get up youre embarrassing both of us, i'm just a messenger." If he doesn't tell you to get up then try and dig a little deeper with your face.

And you may tell me "it's in this book" or "I experienced him" or whatever...
Then I will have to ask if whoever wrote the book experienced him in the same way you did, if yes, then what does it say about both your human minds?

And I'd tell you no. Those in the OT experienced God very differently than the new. And in the new we all experience the Holy Spirit differently. It simply depends on how you honor what you have been given.

Should we assume the experience is an accurate representation of reality, or would it be safer to say that your minds work pretty much in the same way when presented with similar stimuli?
While mine (and many others' who are in a minority) works in a slightly different way?

Sorry sport still trying to shoe horn in your placebo garbage i see.

Here's the thing Paul spends alot of time talking about how God interacts with us on our very own unique levels. He compares us like a body that Jesus is the head over. Meaning we/The body have different functions in the church and not to expect that we are all treated the same. After all the hand will have different use than an eye would or an ear could not taste. We are encouraged to try and understand where we all fit in the body of believers and try and not judge those who's function is different than out own..

So no our experiences can be wildly different with God. The only common thread is that God knows exactly who we are and has promised to give us exactly what we need to establish and maintain our faith.

It is clear that whoever wrote the book you use was also within a highly religious society. So the same sort of stimuli to considering a benevolent god may have been in place... cue in the Essene society.

I see a lill problem with your hypothesis... The God of the bible does not claim to be Benevolent. Matter of fact there are those living right now in whom God hates. If this is true, then what does it say about your ill informed generic hypothesis?

Where did such a notion come from? well, that's been lost to time, so we can do no better than speculate.
However, I see a few options:
- If there is such a god who wants us to know about it and acknowledge it and praise it and do all the things in the bible...

And if this was NEVER EVER the Goal of the God of the bible?

then how did that god make itself known to mankind, in the first place?... in a pre-bible, pre-written word world, how did it do it?

The same way he is doing it now.
He presents Himself in front of the worthy.

If he did it once (or more than once), then what's keeping it from doing the same thing for all of us?

Nothing, except some of us are hidding from Him. He says meet me here, you look for Him in places you know He is not.

I wouldn't mind knowing if there is indeed a benevolent creator god.

But what if He is not benevolent?

I'm curious about it, actually. I want to know.
But I refuse to let my brain get self-deluded into belief.

brother you are all ready hip deep in self delusion. the fact that you keep pushing placebos on to situations that it does not fit.

- If there is no such god, then it was clearly made up, through exploitation of our minds' flaws, even if unwittingly... the notion was conceived and was pleasant enough to flourish and evolve.

Just because your version of what you think God should be does not exists, what makes you think God can't exist?

Why would God need you permission to be different than what you want Him to be?

- If there is a god that created this Universe, but doesn't really care about what goes on here, in this tiny speck of dust in a lost corner of the vast Universe... then... why worry?

What if He does... but 'cares for different things?' Again what makes your morality the universal standard from which God must watch over and govern man?

When you take yourself from the axis from which the universe rotates you will soon discover that there is nothing that says God can't exist, only God does exist in the way I currently understand.

Wow.... you were beating people? Damn, that's evil. I'm glad you found the bible, then. Stick with it! Really!

Live by the sword die by the sword kind of world it was.

I was placed before Jesus on my judgement looked into his eye, got a sample of the love and what Heaven was about, then I experienced a version of Hell I never knew existed. Up until that point I had only known Dante' Inferno version of Hell. Here is where you placeebo theory gets it wrong for me. In what I experienced (A few minutes) totally undermind everything I knew of Jesus, the Judgement, Heaven Hell the purpose of eternal life, death, and redemption. So much so for the first few days I thought everything was made up because in all of my 'church experience' nothing lined up with what I saw... Then I began to read a bible I never picked up before and there  in the bible did I begin to check off all the things I saw and experienced.

Again, all the same and much much more can be yours to experience for yourself. To experience God, to find out everything you know of God to be wrong, and to learn as you read.

I posted a thread like 5 years ago on this website that went into further detail, which throws you baby out with your placebo bath water without even tryng to. Meaning I was not making an counter placebo arguement I was simply pointing out the order in which I began to learn about God. Which again is the complete opposite of how you think it happens.

Wanna see the bathwater come back?

It depends.

What did Buddhism teach you?

That white people thought it was demon worship and would beat you for worshiping idols, but if you wanted your mom's love you did what she said do. which usually meant hiding incense

Where were you brought up? Korea?

Florida, in like farm land and woods.

What's the story with that korean jesus from your mum?

MOM was converted by korean baptist, so we went to a non english speaking korean church. Where I was hated more, for being a 1/2 breed than in public school by whites.

I seriously doubt that you can honestly say that you had never heard about the concept of hell being an afterlife without god, given all the religious influences you were having.

Dante' hell sport. That's all i ever knew as that is what this korean church taught, and it was pretty close to my dad's understanding as well. Not exactly a reader at this point as I could read into my 20s, and we simply did not talk about God in the house.

Going into this dream had no idea of gnashing teeth, and what the big deal was, had no idea hell fire was not fire, had no idea how a dead person was to feel pain, had no idea how the judgement takes place, had no idea Satan did not run Hell, Had no idea we did not burn forever. Had no idea we are consumed/eaten by hell, That we are destroyed by Hell and on and on and on.

You may have not picked up on it, but just heard and shrugged it off, until years later when you dreamed that dream.

Or i spent the next 20 years vetting my experience with the bible as I would come across passages when Jesus would describe one little corner here or John of patmos would describe another aspect over there.

poop on my experience all you like, but here's the thing. My experience is open to all. It was what I needed and God gave it to me. You may need to go a ltle deeper in hell or maybe you may need to win the lottery. I don't know nor do I persume to know. All I do know is God is willing to give us all exactly what we need to start and establish a solid belief. If we simply honor what He has given us. I point back again to doubting thomas. He said he was not going to believe that Christ rose from the dead till he put his fingers in the nail holes in his hands and his hand in the spear hole in his side. Low and behold Thomas Got exactly what he needed. God again with A/S/K is will here to do the same thing if you simply honor his request as Thomas and the others did. (Meet Him on His terms and not on theirs)

Imagine have a real prophetic experience of something you dont know anything about and then find it outlined in the bible

On the other hand, going back to one of the possibilities I mentioned above, your mind could have worked in a similar way to the mind of whoever came up with the concept of hell you then found in the bible.

Or God could have simply sent me there to peer though the gate to come back and tell you what I saw.

Coincidences like this happen. Be honest, is this not a possibility?

Yeah, goto sleep dream about experiencing a version of Hell most people today don't even know about, but is 100% biblically accurate, with little to no knoweledge of it.

Happens all the time...

Again, this was for me. it was what I needed. God is offering you what you need. You may not know what it is (i'm hopping God sends you to Hell) but you may need to win the lottery idk. he point being it is a little harder to just shake something like this off when you are absolutly sure you couldn't have stacked the deck. Or you are so far out in the ocean that you are beyond lost, beyond hope, so when you are brought back you know it was God who did it.

"Correlation does not imply causation" is an often heard phrase... but it does hint towards causation, most of the times.
Concerning the way the human minds works, it gets tricky, due to the highly complex nature of the neural network in our brains.
I prefer to side with human brains that work in a similar way among themselves.

Here's the other thing sport. No one specific place is the complete description of Hell Found. Jesus doesn't even rock a singular description of Hell.That is why it took me 20+ years to vet all that I saw and felt.

If you took ALLLLL of what the bible says over it many many authors, and compiled it. That is what I experienced in a single night. Not too bad for an illiterate atheist.

Brains that can be similarly fooled, or tricked, or deluded into a particular set of conclusions.
You prefer to think there's an external cause to such similarity in conclusions.

Then please identify an internal source.

If there is a god, why would I think the way I do?

We don't think the same moron!
Your question should be how can we think as He does: The answer, the same holy Spirit that inspired the bibe is poured out on s when we A/S/K

If there isn't a god, why would you think the way you do?

I do not honestly know. Nothing in my whole life's experience prepared me for that. Which again was only the beginning of all the things God has done for me.

Sure he does... you were even beating up people. You can do anything that your body can physically perform and no god will interfere. They all let you do whatever you want.

Paul, arguably the greatest Apostle, Murdered Christians till Jesus Himself stopped Him.

Why do you say "now"?
Were you ever prevented from treating others that way?

Because I do not have to treat people with benovelence or how you would normally think a Chistian is to treat someone. What limits me is not the rules of kindness but the limits of how it is i wish to be treated.

Would I have been an "Earth is flat-er"?... maybe... but if people had shown me or told me about how they came to the conclusion of Earth's roundness, I would understand how that works and do the experiment myself, or not.. just run it in my mind and see how it can pan out.
See how it has zero dependence on any of my faulty brain's inner workings and go with it.

seriously???
That is what you would do today, because the flock says do those things! What happens when the flock says stand firm in what you believe and do not approach a given situation anyother way!

You know kinda like how you will not meet God on His terms...

Translation: you mock things others believe that you have not accepted for yourself.

Do I mock thee?

Do I mock thee... use thee alot do you? King James english is what, the version of english you speak when not jabbering in your native tongue?

I keep asking "why do you think this?", "how do you think things happened?", "don't people tend to behave this way?"
I'm trying to get you to think about how people can produce the whole experience of god...

And I'm trying to get you to see that experiencing God is not a uniform thing.

but, since I read that beating up people bit of your life, I'm considering just letting you be a christian apologist, so you don't go back to that.

Beating people up was apart of my atheistic "outreach" It's the same thing you guys do here, It's just I had the sanctification of using my fists and feet.

Come Drich, you had a dream of something you may very well have overheard but not remember until that dream. And you tell me my approach can fail?
Well... I know that I never remember any of my dreams... so... maybe that's for the best.

A dream is where it may have started. but it is certainly not the last time I heard from God. Check out my messenger/message thread i did 5 years ago, There are so many down right maricolous things I've been privy to I feel shame/bad when I share them. Even now i hesitate Let's just say there is nothing I can't ask for, but there are many things I won't ask for, because i can foresee the costs. My prayers tend to center around God's will being done God's timing. (Untill i get squeezed too hard then I ask for what i think will make things better.)

Again not a Drich only thing. This is offered to all of us if we simply honor God and what He has given us

The proud/Chaff God is trying to seperate from the rest by mandating you bow your head and bend you knee before He do anything for you.

Or if you earnestly tried at some point then a 2 out of 3-er

Why is that god so like a king that would require its subjects to bow their heads and bend their knees?

Not a king thing, it a monkey see monkey want to do like God thing

Do you require your cat to do that? (you do have a cat, right? or was it a dog? I forget...)

Damn right. My will: Dog will honor me by being tame which means: dog does not eat shoes, poops and pees outside, does not drink from toilet, does not eat my food when I get up from table. that is an example Dan's will being done in my house. If you do not have similar rules with your dog, and it's dog's will being done then you are a fool! we all have a similar desire to be honored in our homes and our will being carried out. Now just imagine your 'home' being all of creation.

Imagine you were the creator of the Universe... and in that Universe, among 10 billion galaxies, there is one galaxy that, like many others, has some 10 billion stars.... and there is one star around which travels a planet, on the surface of which there many living beings.... but a particular species of them has intelligence... and you want them to bow down to you, because you gave them that intelligence... huh?!
Why would you care?! What does it matter to you that those people assume you exist, bow down, and only then do you present yourself to them... but only to a few, in dreams or some coincidence-ridden experience...

Wow, some people I guess are just born leaders while others just follow... Do you know how any times I've heard that question? do you know how many times I've heard most of your objections before.. Not from you, just from the guy taking his turn in your position? You all think the same or have been programmed the same way.

Let's say that poor stupid Drich was the creator over everything for a moment and there are 10,000,000,000 galaxies and each one had 10 billion stars and each star had an average of 10 planets. Then on one planet i was kicking out potential servants. Not all, as some were lazy assholes who need to be put to death in the worst way possible.. What this Creator see is a labor pool being created or rather maybe a pool of star fleet cadets being created to literally explore what I've created.

It boggles the mind. how limited some of you are.

A theory that posits that the human mind is responsible for all religions that have ever existed on the face of this planet?
Let me know when it falls flat...

It's fallen flat sport.
Bible based Christian is unlike any other religion on the planet.

A lazy mind?
Hive mind?
Have you ever been in a religious temple during a religious ceremony? That's hive mind-like.
"You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."
Well, luckily, we are now equipped with science to properly resist...

how is science not a 'hive mind' or a literal collective???

If there ever was an example of egotistical delusion, this string of babbling nonsense is it.