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Now and before.
#51
RE: Now and before.
(March 14, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Nonpareil Wrote:
(March 14, 2017 at 11:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: The shooter, gun and bullet all are seeable, touchable matter  that effect the outcome, dark matter has none of their qualities if it did we would have proof of it's existence.

It is at this point that I really have to pause the discussion and ask what you think the phrase "dark matter" means, and what you think our understanding of it is.

In brief, and very much simplified: our current understanding of gravity indicates that galaxies should behave in a certain way, assuming that mass is distributed throughout their structures as we would expect it to be. However, when we look at some galaxies, we see them behaving differently, which indicates one of two possibilities: either our understanding of gravity is completely wrong, or there is more matter in those galaxies than we can see. Since our understanding of gravity seems to work pretty well, all things considered, it doesn't look like the first is a real possibility, so we look at the second - there's more matter there, but we can't see it with our current limited tools - as the operational one, and the one worth the most investigation.

We call this stuff that we can't see "dark matter".

This is why I used the example of a person getting shot indicating the presence of a shooter. It wasn't an inaccurate analogy. When someone is shot, we can look at the wound and see the bullet. We know what fires bullets - guns - and so we can safely conclude that this person was shot by a gun.

In the same way, when we look at these galaxies and see them behaving as though there is a large gravitational force acting on them, we know that what causes gravitational forces is mass, and thus conclude that there must be some mass there, even though we can't directly see it.

Now, is it possible that our understanding of gravity is completely wrong? I would personally say that the chances of that are so low as to be effectively nil, but for the sake of this discussion, we can say that yes, it is a technical possibility. In the same way, it is technically possible that, if someone standing next to you was shot, there was, in fact, no shooter, but instead a freak spark of electricity or whatever set off an unprecedented magnetic storm, or whatever, and simply threw the bullet into the man's chest.

So yes. The theories concerning dark matter could be overturned at some point in the future. They are not yet one hundred percent established as fact. But they are still evidence-based, and are rational conclusions when working with the data that we have available. Belief in God is not evidence-based.

The comparison remains invalid.

I understand what science thinks dark matter is and no there's no evidence. All there is is a plug in to explain what science doesn't know, you know kinda like what atheist accuse those who lived long ago of doing. You are using dark matter as a god just like atheist accuse the people of the past of evoking a god for something they did not understand. Surely you can see this.

(March 14, 2017 at 11:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: I have evidence God exists

Nonpareil Wrote:No, you don't.

Yes I do, I have had personal experiences with God. There not for you they were meant for me in my relationship with Him. This is the way God does things with those who believe in Him as their savior, it is a completely "personal relationship" that is sharable and understood by fellow believers because they too share similar experiences.

(March 14, 2017 at 11:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: The Bible has been used to discover many places lost to time and is still used today in that manner. That is evidence whether you think so or not.

Nonpareil Wrote:No, it's not. Even if all of this were true - and it isn't, but I don't care to get into the discussion, because it is once again irrelevant - it would not in any way make the Bible evidence for the existence of a deity.

What I said is true and what you said is the Bible holds no evidence. Like I said in a couple posts back I don't even try to give atheist the evidence they ask for because it's not available and/or in my power to do so. Those who look past the God given evidence that has been provided will have no excuses to fall back on, they will be left speechless.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#52
RE: Now and before.
How many times does it have to be reiterated that "personal experiences" do not amount to evidence. Evidence must be objective and testable. Far from having personal experiences, science can actually explain that as being profoundly deluded.

And your "dark matter of the gaps" analogy is false. I think it has already been explained to you why the evidence points to matter that does not interact with electromagnetic radiation, i.e. matter we cannot see but nonetheless has significant mass. That versus an omniscient, omnipotent being who does magic tricks on one small planet.

Can you seriously even compare the two?
"Faith is the excuse people give when they have no evidence."
  - Matt Dillahunty.
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#53
RE: Now and before.
(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: I understand what science thinks dark matter is and no there's no evidence.

Yes, there is, Godschild. I literally just explained this. The evidence is the anomalous behavior which indicates the presence of matter.

This is not going to go away, no matter how many times you try to ignore it.

(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes I do, I have had personal experiences with God.

No, you haven't.

(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: What I said is true and what you said is the Bible holds no evidence.

I said that the Bible is not evidence for the existence of a god.

And it isn't.
"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
  - A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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#54
RE: Now and before.
(March 15, 2017 at 12:47 am)Nonpareil Wrote:
(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote:


Yes, there is, Godschild. I literally just explained this. The evidence is the anomalous behavior which indicates the presence of matter.

This is not going to go away, no matter how many times you try to ignore it.

What you're trying to say is, if it sounds like a duck it must be a duck, right.
Wrong I know guys who can fool ducks "themselves" with duck calls. The duck actually believes he hears a duck and finds out to late it ain't no duck. Just because a galaxy behaves in a manner which we deem it as caused by matter does not by necessity mean matter cause the behavior. The vastness of space itself means that their is much we do not understand. Even our present understanding of gravity is coming into question by some secular scientist. Because we can not measure the movement of galaxies physically science relies on red shift to say they are moving, yet who can say what effect distance and space could have on red shift.

(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes I do, I have had personal experiences with God.

Nonpareil Wrote:No, you haven't.

How do you know I haven't, what evidence do you have to make this statement. You have no evidence God doesn't exist and that is the first thing you need to address.

(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: What I said is true and what you said is the Bible holds no evidence.

Nonpareil Wrote:I said that the Bible is not evidence for the existence of a god.

And it isn't.

You and I different on what evidence for God is. The Bible isn't written to prove God the Bible is written with the assumption of God. The Bible leads us to the existence of God and when l experience God through the teachings of the Bible then I have proof of God. And I have.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#55
RE: Now and before.
(March 15, 2017 at 1:33 am)Godschild Wrote:
(March 15, 2017 at 12:47 am)Nonpareil Wrote: Yes, there is, Godschild. I literally just explained this. The evidence is the anomalous behavior which indicates the presence of matter.

This is not going to go away, no matter how many times you try to ignore it.

What you're trying to say is, if it sounds like a duck it must be a duck, right.

No, Godschild. I am saying that if it sounds like a duck, you have evidence that it could be a duck.

This is not complicated.

I have snipped the rest of your post because it is getting into irrelevant tangents, and I do not care.
"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
  - A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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#56
RE: Now and before.
It's not like I'm good at the inside at the current moment.
So I'll just write.

God taught Adam "the names". So Adam became capable of knowing mercy, creation.
It makes sense now. This is how humanity knows them meanings; mercy for example exists in every civilization, creation too.

Humans love to create monuments, ranging from pyramids to spears. Mothers breastfeed their young so they don't die.

Take the big bang. Before there was nothing, on the current realm. God made them meanings; that's why his names carry them; the merciful, the king, the all knowing. He taught humanity these meanings.

That's why the world makes sense. Get hit on your head; so hard; things will cease to make sense, you'll just lag.
God is neither a male nor a female, sex is NA when you talk about God. 

He, she, it.
هو, هي
Humans love their pronouns. So it makes sense to use them, but with a warning: don't apply gender here like you do to each other.

Dark matter has a gravitational pull. As a Muslim, I always knew something is there in the void, because I already believe in the invisible.
Already believe the world is so full of unseen entities, but human ego seems to be more visible.
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#57
RE: Now and before.
(March 15, 2017 at 2:55 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: It's not like I'm good at the inside at the current moment.
So I'll just write.

God taught Adam "the names". So Adam became capable of knowing mercy, creation.
It makes sense now. This is how humanity knows them meanings; mercy for example exists in every civilization, creation too.

Humans love to create monuments, ranging from pyramids to spears. Mothers breastfeed their young so they don't die.

Take the big bang. Before there was nothing, on the current realm. God made them meanings; that's why his names carry them; the merciful, the king, the all knowing. He taught humanity these meanings.

That's why the world makes sense. Get hit on your head; so hard; things will cease to make sense, you'll just lag.
God is neither a male nor a female, sex is NA when you talk about God. 

He, she, it.
هو, هي
Humans love their pronouns. So it makes sense to use them, but with a warning: don't apply gender here like you do to each other.

Dark matter has a gravitational pull. As a Muslim, I always knew something is there in the void, because I already believe in the invisible.
Already believe the world is so full of unseen entities, but human ego seems to be more visible.

For the love of camels dude, please stop it. You like any Jesus fan ASSUME a god first. That is not how good logic works. Don't make me go all Trump on you, I like you. 

You all do it, every fan of every religion ASSUMES FIRST.

Buddha explains life=I am right.
Hindu Brahama explains life= I am right.
Yahweh explains life=I am right.
Jesus explains life= I am right
Allah explains life= I am right.

UGGGGGGGGGGGG! I love my species good side in their ability to be compassionate but when it comes to religion you all make me want to pull my hair out. *Cranky old man waving fist*

I am too nice to be a dick like Trump, I don't call for bans on religion race bait, but sorry man, just like Hindus and Jews and Buddhists and Christians, it is all the same to me. "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup"..... Now you or a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist or a Hindu, please disprove the existence of Thor.
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#58
RE: Now and before.
The ineffable desire to make a bridge between ones chosen god and reality (science) to bolster belief is pretty pathetic isn't it.

If they could just be satisfied with leaving god in the misty supernatural world inside their heads, instead of repeatedly making twats of themselves in the grown ups world, we would all be much happier.

But they won't.
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#59
RE: Now and before.
(March 15, 2017 at 12:14 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes I do, I have had personal experiences with God. There not for you they were meant for me in my relationship with Him. This is the way God does things with those who believe in Him as their savior, it is a completely "personal relationship" that is sharable and understood by fellow believers because they too share similar experiences.

This sort of "testimony" never ceases to amaze me.
Let me see if I understand your order of events:
- First, you believe.
- Second, some "personal relationship" develops.
- Third, you have some "experience"
- Fourth, you get confirmation that the god you started off believing actually exists, thus reinforcing your initial belief.


Does this look correct to you?
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#60
RE: Now and before.
(March 13, 2017 at 7:56 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 12, 2017 at 7:49 pm)TheAtheologian Wrote: The laws of physics breaks down at this point, so the explanation will be beyond us. We didn't evolve with this experience. 
It is not true to say that there was nothing and then something. The term "nothing" postulates space, since all terms relating to a reality assume spacial coordinates. I can't claim to know the true explanation of the universe, but based on what is accepted here, the universe wasn't preceded by anything. 
To say God is the explanation of why there is something rather than nothing is to assume a specific relationship between existence, causality, and nothing. This is to assume a lot. 
God is actually a rather terrible explanation for the origins of the big bang, space, and time, as shown by the the principle of ignorance. An explanation such as a mind will have cognitive features, which means that a predictable pattern should be able to be deduced from such an event. This would be part of a teleological based event. However, the big bang lacks these predictable cognitive features, it is lacked in its initial conditions. You cannot overcome the random nature of this event. Physical theory breaks down at the big bang singularity. 
Also, this concept of God has ontological inconsistencies.

Atlas, nor Muslims or Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists ect ect ect, nobody sees that their arguments ARE NOT different. When the believer, (insert religion here), cant win by directly peddling the holy writings or holy person they follow, they try to debunk science to point to their holy writing/person. When they cant get away with that they try to claim that science matches their holy writing/person. Every religion worldwide has pockets of humans who resort to these tactics. 

My deity is real.
My book says.
My holy writings say.
My holy person says.
My club debunks science.
My club has made scientific discoveries.

There is not one religion in the world who does not have members who make these attempts. Not one.

Funny how no religion in the world can destroy the claims of the others with objectivity and peer review. Arguing a religion is nothing more than apology, an attempt to convince oneself of that to which one has no impartial evidence. Atlas despite all his efforts, has the same problem that GC and CL has, that a Hindu and Buddhist have. Sure you can all accept parts of science, but none of you want to face that science itself has never propped up any religion, because it is a neutral tool, not an apology.

Scientific method does not point to Allah, or Yahweh or Jesus or Vishnu or Apollo. Most humans don't want to face this fact.

(March 13, 2017 at 6:23 am)Stimbo Wrote: Name six.


I see your Isaac Newton and raise you a Stephen Hawking.

This is the shit Atlas a Muslim, and GC a Christian and even like I said in  prior posts, even Hindus and Buddhists don't want to face. They all point to their histories and individuals who make scientific discoveries. Ask Atlas and he also will point to his book and say it matches science and point to Muslims whom made scientific discoveries.

Newton got physics right sure, but that does not make the Christian god real. Newton also postulated alchemy for a while and that was absolute garbage. Arabs invented algebra so does that make Allah real if Atlas points to that? By this logic the Greek gods are the real gods because the ancient Greeks were the first to coin and use the word "atom". Funny how neither the Christian or Muslim actually believe that the use of the word "atom" back then meant they knew what an electron or proton or neutron were. Fact is when the Greeks coined that word it was simply a word saying "imagine the smallest thing you cant divide". 

The ancient Egyptians thought the sun was controlled by a deity, they could point to a real sun, but that does not mean because they were master engineers in their building and pretty artwork they knew back then what the chemical makeup of the sun was. Newton advancing some things and being right about some things does not make the God of Jesus the one true god, anymore than the Quran talking about the stars means they knew anything about modern science. 

Spend enough time debating Muslims and Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus, you will find plenty in every religion that claim science is their unique discovery and points to their club.

You omitted yourself Brian and the religion of Atheism. The exception being your stance is anything but God.

Spend enough time debating Atheists and Agnostics and Non-Deists and Deist fluids, and you will find plenty in every atheistic denomination that claim their science is their unique discovery and points to their club.
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