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What is logic?
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RE: What is logic?
April 22, 2017 at 11:56 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2017 at 12:40 pm by Angrboda.)
(April 22, 2017 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote:(April 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: They surely think that those experiences are real but if they would have an NDE they surely would realize that an NDE is the real real experience. Seeing that the original statement that spawned this is the following: (April 21, 2017 at 4:27 am)Lucanus Wrote:(April 19, 2017 at 7:46 pm)Little Rik Wrote: Wrong again Luc. All of the above bullshit reply is beside the point. The question was whether a malfunctioning brain can "build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience," and the evidence from this person's experience with ketamine is a distinct, "yes, it can." So despite all your emojis and all your bullshit about the pineal gland, you are still wrong. (April 22, 2017 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: Karl Jansen published papers on his discovery of the similarities between ketamine's Trying to distract from the point that you were wrong with more irrelevant bullshit. Yet another fail. The NDE experiencer said that the experience of an NDE was "exactly like" the experience on ketamine. That's not my interpretation, those are his words. What Dr. Jansen is doing is irrelevant to what this NDEer and ketamine user experienced. (April 22, 2017 at 11:56 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:(April 22, 2017 at 9:52 am)Little Rik Wrote: You must be a total nutcase Yog. not to know the difference between a masturbation and For Christ'sake Yog. You are a lot more demented than I previously though. The guy that suppose to have an NDE in reality did not have any NDE. He just faint away overtaken by smoke and had an hallucination. That's all. Where is the evidence that he really died? Nobody witness his death. He didn't have any experience with God which would go in line with all other NDEs experiences. Nothing of that kind and yet you and other total idiots jump on the wagon of other idiots that don't even bother to put all pieces together and raise the flag of victory. Grow up Yog because at the moment you only talk crap.
You know yog, you never had an NDE. You never stood next to me.
(April 22, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Little Rik Wrote:(April 22, 2017 at 11:56 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Seeing that the original statement that spawned this is the following: Back to making shit up when you're proven wrong. The same features are present in NDEs that accompany a near death experience and those that don't. They are the same experience. You're just making up an imaginary difference because you can't stand being wrong. How is it that you know about this difference? Have you ever experienced an NDE with and without death? No you haven't. You're just pulling shit from your ass. (April 22, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Little Rik Wrote: Where is the evidence that he really died? All other NDEs experiences? Try 56% or roughly half. Try not making shit up that you don't know. (April 22, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Little Rik Wrote: Nothing of that kind and yet you and other total idiots jump on the wagon of other idiots that I'm not the one making ad hoc declarations that you have to really die to have an NDE. There's no way you could possibly know this. You're just talking out of your ass like usual. How do you know that certain NDEs are 'real' and others are hallucinations? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:(April 21, 2017 at 4:27 am)Lucanus Wrote: Still too vague! There is nothing more vague than saying "within". What is "within"? Is it memory? Is it the capability to extrapolate possibile answers from past experiences of similar circumstances? Or is it something else entirely? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:How do you define the "unconscious mind"? If so, then how and why do you own this knowledge? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:How do you determine that only through yoga - that is, through subjective experience - you can understand these deeper, but still objective truths of reality? Who is this "father"? What proof is there for his existence? Why is he a masculine figure? How do you reach him through yoga? What is the other system to reach him? And why does this sound a lot like a Christian's "You could believe if you really wanted to" argument? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:How exactly should consciousness be affected? And yet people are living quite well without it, and are able to function normally if they compensate the (very much physical) lack of melatonin secretion. The article you quoted is first of all irrelevant to this argument, as it does not explain what should happen if the pineal gland were removed, except when it says that children show an earlier onset of maturity - but it doesn't have to do with people being zombies! Other than that, the article doesn't clearly cite any sources, opens up the with very big, unsupported statements (which are completely mystical/religious in nature) and is full to the brim with some of the least sound logic I have ever heard, like this statement here: Quote:Cleaning up the pineal gland is useful for those wishing to develop their multidimensional perception. The Pineal gland will naturally make its own DMT when fully operational and we will be able to remain in a visionary state most of the time. An awakened pineal gland brings the ability to consciously astral travel, explore other dimensions, foresee the future... Like seriously who writes this stuff? If you get high on endogenous DMT, you are not having a spiritual experience. You're simply high on DMT and hallucinating. Jeez. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:Also, how does consciousness interact with the brain if the pineal gland is removed? Slow down. You still have to demonstrate that consciousness is separate from the brain and can exist independently from it for your famous car analogy to be indeed valid. So let's put this point on hold until you have done so. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:And if you see the actual biological parameters of most of these people you'll see that about 50% of them are suffering only from a minor trauma or shock (such as hypoglycemia) and they are quite far from dying, as reported in the papers that I cited in my last post. It might be so, but it also might not. There is no proof for any of your statements, and the materialistic alternatives (which I stated in the previous posts) are perfectly valid, as demonstrated by the fact that you're avoiding the question with more assertions, without any proof to be seen. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:Again, you demonstrate a superficial view of the problem. Personal experiences are not objective evidence. They, more often than not, are biased, inaccurate and unhelpful. This is also the case with NDEs, seeing as they seem to be strongly influenced by the subject's culture and beliefs. How about you read what the objective conditions of these patients actually are? I cited the articles in one of my previous posts. Are you so closed-minded and dogmatic that you can't even think that this kind of approach might be correct? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:This statement is demonstrably false. People who take hallucinogenic drugs (such as LSD or Ketamin) very often report clear sharp and vivid experiences... But those are the experiences of a malfunctioning brain! And yet there's this guy who's had Ketamin and then (for separate reasons) had an NDE and says that he experienced the exactly same things! Do you trust his personal experience? If not why do you not try Ketamin? Remember that the statements you're making have to be tested! (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:And since you seem to imply that the NDEs do not occur in the brain (I assume your explanation is that "consciousness" is out of the body by that time), how does consciousness work without the biological scaffold of the brain? Why is this necessary? Is there proof for this process? Why does it sound like it's made up by people who don't know what they're talking about? (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:How does it get "back in" when the patient recovers? Nope! You have to be more detailed if you want me to let go of my point of view. These are people with their own biases. I want objective evidence. As long as you provide none, my explanation will remain that NDEs are hallucinations. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:Why is a brain - heck why are living organisms even necessary when consciousness is so clear and self-aware on its own? Aware of what? Why is the whole process necessary? Stop it with the "just-so" stuff, bring up the evidence. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:But I am not arguing for any specific position! I'm just telling you how your model of reality doesn't work and how there is no good evidence to corroborate it. When? How about every single time the scientific method has been applied. Look at electricity and magnetism. Look at evolution. Look at the whole of chemistry. Philosophers and old books are cool and all, and they should be studied. But they should not be held on such a high standard. Today, we have a vastly superior understanding of the world compared to 3 or 4 centuries ago. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote:Quote:And that is because neuroscientists, unlike gurus or priests or what have you, are not satisfied by superficial, "just-so" explanations to such a complicated phenomenon. Because your explanations of how it works give me the impression that it's all made up, superficial and inaccurate.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped. Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses. Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder. Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids." (April 22, 2017 at 4:55 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(April 22, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Little Rik Wrote: For Christ'sake Yog. Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective. You have no imagination of how to proceed to uncover the truth. No idea of whatsoever. Nothing and yet you pretend to know how to know the truth. So let me give you few tips. First you have to listen to more people as possible so you will be able to understand the direction to proceed. When you find so many people coming from different grounds that never met each other and their stories point in only one direction then you got to agree that they say the truth. Some of these people were believers, other non believers and many other were in between so they were people not interested in believing or non believing and yet all of them experienced God and now they all believe. Not only that but almost all are interested in spirituality rather than religions. If you would have even a little bit of feeling for detective acumen then by now you would understand that NDEs are real because these experiences point in the same direction. Unfortunately Atheists lack acumen. The same failing goes by believing that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it. Failing after failing after failing. (April 23, 2017 at 4:34 am)Lucanus Wrote: There is nothing more vague than saying "within". What is "within"? Is it memory? Is it the capability to extrapolate possibile answers from past experiences of similar circumstances? Or is it something else entirely? Something else Luc. Didn't I already explained that the consciousness is one but as the iceberg one part is above and the other is below the water so the consciousness is also one but only the part above your awareness is available to you. The rest is not available until you make the effort of raising it up to your awareness. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: That particular knowledge that you own but you can not use yet. Quote:If so, then how and why do you own this knowledge? Somebody gave it to you Luc that is why you got it but there is a catch. The catch is that it come hidden and it is up to you to unhide or uncover and bring it to the surface. This game is called God'lila. Quote:Who is this "father"? The one who create everything. Many people call Him God. Ever heard that name? Quote:What proof is there for his existence? Science tell us that everything that exist has got a cause. Actions must have a reaction so the creation is a reaction to an action and behind and action there got to be a mind that is why I believe in a creator. Quote:Why is he a masculine figure? It is like saying..........men.....in order to say both men and women. God doesn't have sex nor a physical body yet we have to call this entity in some way so by saying Him we mean God. I understand that this way may not make any sense to you but if you got a better way to name this entity please tell us. Quote:How do you reach him through yoga? Yoga is a complete system that unable you to reduce the distance that separate you from Him. All other system have some good part but they lack in something. Quote:What is the other system to reach him? The other system require that you get rid of your karma life after life by being a good person that in the meantime does not build any more karma along the way. That is possible but next to impossible because if you take it easy and do not have a system that help you to get rid of your karma in a short time you will fail easy although some people may make it. Quote:And why does this sound a lot like a Christian's "You could believe if you really wanted to" argument? I don't like that approach. It doesn't apply to me. Quote:And yet people are living quite well without it, and are able to function normally if they compensate the (very much physical) lack of melatonin secretion. Is not an ideal situation. I wouldn't even want to think about living without it. Quote:The article you quoted is first of all irrelevant to this argument, as it does not explain what should happen if the pineal gland were removed, except when it says that children show an earlier onset of maturity - but it doesn't have to do with people being zombies! Even physical science is not clear about how the consciousness works or exist. In fact this science know next to nothing. Evidence can only come from intuitional science. Quote:Cleaning up the pineal gland is useful for those wishing to develop their multidimensional perception. The Pineal gland will naturally make its own DMT when fully operational and we will be able to remain in a visionary state most of the time. An awakened pineal gland brings the ability to consciously astral travel, explore other dimensions, foresee the future... Quote:Like seriously who writes this stuff? If you get high on endogenous DMT, you are not having a spiritual experience. You're simply high on DMT and hallucinating. Jeez. The article is talking about cleaning the gland which can only happen by working on the gland in a natural way such as yoga while you talk about the masturbation way in form of DMT. You just don't get it Luc, do you? Quote:Slow down. You still have to demonstrate that consciousness is separate from the brain and can exist independently from it for your famous car analogy to be indeed valid. So let's put this point on hold until you have done so. The consciousness can not separate from the brain as far as you are alive. It only separate when the body die. As you leave you car when it rot away also the consciousness do the same when you body goes to the dogs. NDEs show that this is a reality. (April 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: Awareness in these people who had an NDE is there all the time from the time that they leave their bodies to the time that they re enter their bodies. Quote:It might be so, but it also might not. There is no proof for any of your statements, and the materialistic alternatives (which I stated in the previous posts) are perfectly valid, as demonstrated by the fact that you're avoiding the question with more assertions, without any proof to be seen. Proofs are there Luc. As far as doctors declare a person dead and after sometime that person come back it clearly means that is all about resuscitation. Quote:Personal experiences are not objective evidence. They, more often than not, are biased, inaccurate and unhelpful. This is also the case with NDEs, seeing as they seem to be strongly influenced by the subject's culture and beliefs. Wrong again Luc. Read my previous post in which I answer to Yog. Quote:And yet there's this guy who's had Ketamin and then (for separate reasons) had an NDE and says that he experienced the exactly same things! I do trust personal experiences when these are corroborated by many other people. In that case that doesn't apply. RE: What is logic?
April 23, 2017 at 1:47 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2017 at 1:56 pm by Angrboda.)
(April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective. You know, for someone who regularly derides masturbation, you spend an awful lot of time jerking off. There are many reasons that I personally would not make a good detective, none of them having to do with a lack of imagination or acumen. (April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: So let me give you few tips. Or 'you got to agree' that there is a confounding variable. You're not very good at this detective game either. (April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: Some of these people were believers, other non believers and many other were in between so they were people not interested in believing or non believing and yet all of them experienced God and now they all believe. Gee, I can't imagine an alternative explanation which could account for that. (April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you would have even a little bit of feeling for detective acumen then by now you would understand that NDEs are real because these experiences point in the same direction. The fact that you have found yourself ensconced in a group of people that believe the same thing and your only solution is, "It must be true!" shows what a pitifully poor detective you are. (April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: Unfortunately Atheists lack acumen. Unfortunately, asserting bullshit is all you're good at. (April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: The same failing goes by believing that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it. Got an answer to the question yet, jerkoff? How do you know there is a qualitative difference between NDEs experienced by people who are clinically dead and experiences by those who are not clinically dead? (April 23, 2017 at 1:47 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(April 23, 2017 at 8:59 am)Little Rik Wrote: Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective. Quote:Got an answer to the question yet, jerkoff? How do you know there is a qualitative difference between NDEs experienced by people who are clinically dead and experiences by those who are not clinically dead? Easy Yog. Those who are not dead yet can not experience an NDE because their consciousness is still stuck in the body-brain. Only when the consciousness has separate and is free from the bondage of the body-brain then she is able to see the real thing. |
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