What is logic?

[LastPoet]

Or as Dhalsim would say, yoga fire, lel.

[Angrboda]

They surely think that those experiences are real but if they would have an NDE they surely would realize that an NDE is the real real experience.
100% real compare to maybe 1% real.

Wrong again.

I had an NDE about 6 days before the first time I took ketamine because my then partner died. ...  I had acquired the "K" (ketamine) a week previously for the party, but didn't do it until a few days after she died. It was the first time I had taken "K". ...  It was like a way out and it was exactly like the out-of-body thing. ... I tried "K" again quite a number of times and the same thing happened every time. It was like this pure consciousness. I hadn't any shape. You could fly and you could actually travel although you are still in the same place. You are in the place where everybody is who has ever died.

http://www.near-death.com/science/halluc...-ndes.html

You must be a total nutcase Yog.   not to know the difference between a masturbation and
making love.

By using Ketamine you force the pineal gland to do things against his wishes while an NDE is something natural in which God teach you something.
A trip caused by ketamine teach you absolutely nothing.
All you experience are hallucinations.
Nothing to do with God teaching.
In a NDE you are dead.
In a ketamine trip you are still alive.
By forcing the consciousness to act in a unnatural way a lot of negative things can happen.

Seeing that the original statement that spawned this is the following:

Wrong again Luc.
When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience.

This statement is demonstrably false. People who take hallucinogenic drugs (such as LSD or Ketamin) very often report clear sharp and vivid experiences... But those are the experiences of a malfunctioning brain!

All of the above bullshit reply is beside the point.  The question was whether a malfunctioning brain can "build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience," and the evidence from this person's experience with ketamine is a distinct, "yes, it can."  So despite all your emojis and all your bullshit about the pineal gland, you are still wrong.

Karl Jansen published papers on his discovery of the similarities between ketamine's
The guy say........SIMILARITY yog.
Do you know what this word means Yog?
You don't Yog and you don't because you are a nutcase that try to give your own interpretation in order to make a point.
So no Yog, you fail once again.      

Trying to distract from the point that you were wrong with more irrelevant bullshit.   Yet another fail.  The NDE experiencer said that the experience of an NDE was "exactly like" the experience on ketamine.  That's not my interpretation, those are his words.  What Dr. Jansen is doing is irrelevant to what this NDEer and ketamine user experienced.

[Little Rik]

You must be a total nutcase Yog.   not to know the difference between a masturbation and
making love.

By using Ketamine you force the pineal gland to do things against his wishes while an NDE is something natural in which God teach you something.
A trip caused by ketamine teach you absolutely nothing.
All you experience are hallucinations.
Nothing to do with God teaching.
In a NDE you are dead.
In a ketamine trip you are still alive.
By forcing the consciousness to act in a unnatural way a lot of negative things can happen.

Seeing that the original statement that spawned this is the following:

This statement is demonstrably false. People who take hallucinogenic drugs (such as LSD or Ketamin) very often report clear sharp and vivid experiences... But those are the experiences of a malfunctioning brain!

All of the above bullshit reply is beside the point.  The question was whether a malfunctioning brain can "build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience," and the evidence from this person's experience with ketamine is a distinct, "yes, it can."  So despite all your emojis and all your bullshit about the pineal gland, you are still wrong.

Karl Jansen published papers on his discovery of the similarities between ketamine's
The guy say........SIMILARITY yog.
Do you know what this word means Yog?
You don't Yog and you don't because you are a nutcase that try to give your own interpretation in order to make a point.
So no Yog, you fail once again.      

Trying to distract from the point that you were wrong with more irrelevant bullshit.   Yet another fail.  The NDE experiencer said that the experience of an NDE was "exactly like" the experience on ketamine.  That's not my interpretation, those are his words.  What Dr. Jansen is doing is irrelevant to what this NDEer and ketamine user experienced.

For Christ'sake Yog.  

You are a lot more demented than I previously though.
The guy that suppose to have an NDE in reality did not have any NDE.
He just faint away overtaken by smoke and had an hallucination.
That's all.
Where is the evidence that he really died?
Nobody witness his death.
He didn't have any experience with God which would go in line with all other NDEs  experiences.
Nothing of that kind and yet you and other total idiots jump on the wagon of other idiots that
don't even bother to put all pieces together and raise the flag of victory.

Grow up Yog because at the moment you only talk crap.  

[LastPoet]

You know yog, you never had an NDE. You never stood next to me.

[Angrboda]

Seeing that the original statement that spawned this is the following:


All of the above bullshit reply is beside the point.  The question was whether a malfunctioning brain can "build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience," and the evidence from this person's experience with ketamine is a distinct, "yes, it can."  So despite all your emojis and all your bullshit about the pineal gland, you are still wrong.


Trying to distract from the point that you were wrong with more irrelevant bullshit.   Yet another fail.  The NDE experiencer said that the experience of an NDE was "exactly like" the experience on ketamine.  That's not my interpretation, those are his words.  What Dr. Jansen is doing is irrelevant to what this NDEer and ketamine user experienced.

For Christ'sake Yog.  

You are a lot more demented than I previously though.
The guy that suppose to have an NDE in reality did not have any NDE.
He just faint away overtaken by smoke and had an hallucination.
That's all.

Back to making shit up when you're proven wrong. The same features are present in NDEs that accompany a near death experience and those that don't. They are the same experience. You're just making up an imaginary difference because you can't stand being wrong. How is it that you know about this difference? Have you ever experienced an NDE with and without death? No you haven't. You're just pulling shit from your ass.

Where is the evidence that he really died?
Nobody witness his death.
He didn't have any experience with God which would go in line with all other NDEs  experiences.

All other NDEs experiences? Try 56% or roughly half. Try not making shit up that you don't know.

Nothing of that kind and yet you and other total idiots jump on the wagon of other idiots that
don't even bother to put all pieces together and raise the flag of victory.

Grow up Yog because at the moment you only talk crap.  

I'm not the one making ad hoc declarations that you have to really die to have an NDE. There's no way you could possibly know this. You're just talking out of your ass like usual. How do you know that certain NDEs are 'real' and others are hallucinations?

[Lucanus]

Still too vague!

What does "the unconscious mind become conscious mind" mean?

Human beings barely are aware of less then 1% of the total knowledge.
Have you noticed that when you do not know an answer you think and think until the answer pop up if ever pop up.
Where does the answer come from?
It come from within Luc.
Within there are all the answer but to get these answers up to your mind you need a struggle most the time.
Anyway when the answer that previously was hidden within pop up into your mind then that particular
piece of knowledge now is part of your knowledge so the unconscious become conscious.

There is nothing more vague than saying "within". What is "within"? Is it memory? Is it the capability to extrapolate possibile answers from past experiences of similar circumstances? Or is it something else entirely?

How do you define the "unconscious mind"?

That particular knowledge that you own but you can not use yet.

If so, then how and why do you own this knowledge?

How do you determine that only through yoga - that is, through subjective experience - you can understand these deeper, but still objective truths of reality?

Your father is a very very powerful entity.
What belong to your father belong to you as well.
The only problem Luc is that you got to realize that between you and Him there is no distinction
and to realize this you need a powerful system that able you to reach this realization and this system
is called yoga.
Yoga is given to you from your father because He want you to own all He own.
Actually there is also an other system to reach your father but that is an extremely difficult system.

Who is this "father"? What proof is there for his existence? Why is he a masculine figure? How do you reach him through yoga? What is the other system to reach him?

And why does this sound a lot like a Christian's "You could believe if you really wanted to" argument?

How exactly should consciousness be affected?
From what we see though, it just isn't. People whose pineal gland was removed keep on living a normal life, they just need to take melatonin to compensate the insomnia that derives from the removal of the pineal gland.

I don't agree with your idea that without the pineal gland people can live a normal life.
The more you try to find out how people would live without the pineal gland the more you find
opposite opinions.
I personally think that without the pineal gland you would live like a zombie.
Here below one of the many many opinions.

https://watchers.news/2012/01/24/why-pin...ese-times/

And yet people are living quite well without it, and are able to function normally if they compensate the (very much physical) lack of melatonin secretion.

The article you quoted is first of all irrelevant to this argument, as it does not explain what should happen if the pineal gland were removed, except when it says that children show an earlier onset of maturity - but it doesn't have to do with people being zombies!

Other than that, the article doesn't clearly cite any sources, opens up the with very big, unsupported statements (which are completely mystical/religious in nature) and is full to the brim with some of the least sound logic I have ever heard, like this statement here:

Cleaning up the pineal gland is useful for those wishing to develop their multidimensional perception. The Pineal gland will naturally make its own DMT when fully operational and we will be able to remain in a visionary state most of the time. An awakened pineal gland brings the ability to consciously astral travel, explore other dimensions, foresee the future...

Like seriously who writes this stuff? If you get high on endogenous DMT, you are not having a spiritual experience. You're simply high on DMT and hallucinating. Jeez.

Also, how does consciousness interact with the brain if the pineal gland is removed?
It doesn't make a lot of sense - what is the function of the pineal gland if consciousness isn't really affected by its removal? You say that consciousness "stays where the pineal gland was". But if the biological structures that allowed for this supposed brain-consciousness interface aren't there anymore, how does it happen?

When you go inside your car you do not need to get connected with all the wiring that are inside the car yet you are able to tell your car to move.
The consciousness doesn't really need much to get connected to the rest of the body-brain.
Always remember that the consciousness being an abstract entity is far more superior to the matter such as the body-brain and everything that is superior is the boss which everybody will have to obey to.

Slow down. You still have to demonstrate that consciousness is separate from the brain and can exist independently from it for your famous car analogy to be indeed valid. So let's put this point on hold until you have done so.

And if you see the actual biological parameters of most of these people you'll see that about 50% of them are suffering only from a minor trauma or shock (such as hypoglycemia) and they are quite far from dying, as reported in the papers that I cited in my last post.
And this still doesn't take out the possibility of the NDE occurring while the patient recovers!

Awareness in these people who had an NDE is there all the time from the time that they leave their bodies to the time that they re enter their bodies.
There is no such a thing as recover.
There is instead a resuscitation.
Recover means that these people never really died which is not the case as doctors said that these people really died.

It might be so, but it also might not. There is no proof for any of your statements, and the materialistic alternatives (which I stated in the previous posts) are perfectly valid, as demonstrated by the fact that you're avoiding the question with more assertions, without any proof to be seen.

Again, you demonstrate a superficial view of the problem.
If someone has an NDE because of an accident, they clearly are not hooked up to an EEG machine when the injuries occur. So you just cannot know whether their EEG goes flat immediately.
There are no data to point in any direction. Be humble and say you don't know, because in this case, nobody can.
And again, as a side note, you still haven't taken into account the possibility of the NDE occurring during the recovery phase, when the brain "reboots".

Sorry Luc but hundreds of NDEs confirm what I already said.
Just read them.

Personal experiences are not objective evidence. They, more often than not, are biased, inaccurate and unhelpful. This is also the case with NDEs, seeing as they seem to be strongly influenced by the subject's culture and beliefs.

How about you read what the objective conditions of these patients actually are? I cited the articles in one of my previous posts. Are you so closed-minded and dogmatic that you can't even think that this kind of approach might be correct?

This statement is demonstrably false. People who take hallucinogenic drugs (such as LSD or Ketamin) very often report clear sharp and vivid experiences... But those are the experiences of a malfunctioning brain!

They surely think that those experiences are real but if they would have an NDE they surely would realize that an NDE is the real real experience.
100% real compare to maybe 1% real.

And yet there's this guy who's had Ketamin and then (for separate reasons) had an NDE and says that he experienced the exactly same things!

Do you trust his personal experience? If not why do you not try Ketamin? Remember that the statements you're making have to be tested!

And since you seem to imply that the NDEs do not occur in the brain (I assume your explanation is that "consciousness" is out of the body by that time), how does consciousness work without the biological scaffold of the brain?

Interesting question but easy to know.
Consciousness doesn't really need a brain to work.
It work even better when is free from the constraint of being stuck inside a brain but because
it is forced to live inside a brain then there got to be a relationship between her and the brain.
Sooner or later even the best relationship come to an end and the consciousness before it re enter
a new body-brain has got a relationship with the creator so relationships never really stop and a source of
nourishment for the consciousness exist all the time.    

Why is this necessary? Is there proof for this process? Why does it sound like it's made up by people who don't know what they're talking about?

How does it get "back in" when the patient recovers?

It just does.
Read the NDEs to see how they can.
http://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html

Nope! You have to be more detailed if you want me to let go of my point of view. These are people with their own biases. I want objective evidence. As long as you provide none, my explanation will remain that NDEs are hallucinations.

Why is a brain - heck why are living organisms even necessary when consciousness is so clear and self-aware on its own?

The subconscious mind is certainly 100% aware but the conscious mind is not.
There is a gap in between and because the conscious mind is dependent on a body-brain then living organisms are necessary until the subconscious mind become conscious.

Aware of what? Why is the whole process necessary? Stop it with the "just-so" stuff, bring up the evidence.

But I am not arguing for any specific position! I'm just telling you how your model of reality doesn't work and how there is no good evidence to corroborate it.
I personally am of the opinion that materialistic explanations of the phenomena we see in our daily lives are to be preferred - and should therefore be the default position to take in absence of any evidence for anything.
Why do I think this? Because when we get to a sufficient level of scientific insight on the subject matter, our models work and allow us to progress further in our understanding of reality AND in our quality of life.

When when Luc?
In the meantime old books and philosophers busts get the dust while yogi get the real McCoy.  

When? How about every single time the scientific method has been applied. Look at electricity and magnetism. Look at evolution. Look at the whole of chemistry.

Philosophers and old books are cool and all, and they should be studied. But they should not be held on such a high standard. Today, we have a vastly superior understanding of the world compared to 3 or 4 centuries ago.

And that is because neuroscientists, unlike gurus or priests or what have you, are not satisfied by superficial, "just-so" explanations to such a complicated phenomenon.

How would you know that yoga is superficial when you never try it?  

Because your explanations of how it works give me the impression that it's all made up, superficial and inaccurate.

[Little Rik]

For Christ'sake Yog.  

You are a lot more demented than I previously though.
The guy that suppose to have an NDE in reality did not have any NDE.
He just faint away overtaken by smoke and had an hallucination.
That's all.

Back to making shit up when you're proven wrong. The same features are present in NDEs that accompany a near death experience and those that don't.  They are the same experience.  You're just making up an imaginary difference because you can't stand being wrong.   How is it that you know about this difference?  Have you ever experienced an NDE with and without death?  No you haven't.  You're just pulling shit from your ass.

Where is the evidence that he really died?
Nobody witness his death.
He didn't have any experience with God which would go in line with all other NDEs  experiences.

All other NDEs experiences?  Try 56% or roughly half.  Try not making shit up that you don't know.

Nothing of that kind and yet you and other total idiots jump on the wagon of other idiots that
don't even bother to put all pieces together and raise the flag of victory.

Grow up Yog because at the moment you only talk crap.  

I'm not the one making ad hoc declarations that you have to really die to have an NDE.  There's no way you could possibly know this.  You're just talking out of your ass like usual.  How do you know that certain NDEs are 'real' and others are hallucinations?

Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective.
You have no imagination of how to proceed to uncover the truth.
No idea of whatsoever.
Nothing and yet you pretend to know how to know the truth.

So let me give you few tips.
First you have to listen to more people as possible so you will be able to understand the direction to proceed.
When you find so many people coming from different grounds that never met each other and their stories point in only one direction then you got to agree that they say the truth.
Some of these people were believers, other non believers and many other were in between so they were people not interested in believing or non believing and yet all of them experienced God and now they all believe.
Not only that but almost all are interested in spirituality rather than religions.

If you would have even a little bit of feeling for detective acumen then by now you would understand that NDEs are real because these experiences point in the same direction.

Unfortunately Atheists lack acumen.  

The same failing goes by believing that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it.
Failing after failing after failing.  

[Little Rik]

There is nothing more vague than saying "within". What is "within"? Is it memory? Is it the capability to extrapolate possibile answers from past experiences of similar circumstances? Or is it something else entirely?

Something else Luc.
Didn't I already explained that the consciousness is one but as the iceberg one part is above and the other is below the water so the consciousness is also one but only the part above your awareness is available to you.
The rest is not available until you make the effort of raising it up to your awareness.

That particular knowledge that you own but you can not use yet.

If so, then how and why do you own this knowledge?

Somebody gave it to you Luc that is why you got it but there is a catch.
The catch is that it come hidden and it is up to you to unhide or uncover and bring it to the surface.
This game is called God'lila.

Who is this "father"?

The one who create everything.
Many people call Him God.
Ever heard that name?  

What proof is there for his existence?

Science tell us that everything that exist has got a cause.
Actions must have a reaction so the creation is a reaction to an action and behind and action there got to be a mind that is why I believe in a creator.

Why is he a masculine figure?

It is like saying..........men.....in order to say both men and women.
God doesn't have sex nor a physical body yet we have to call this entity in some way so by saying Him
we mean God.
I understand that this way may not make any sense to you but if you got a better way to name this entity please tell us.

How do you reach him through yoga?

Yoga is a complete system that unable you to reduce the distance that separate you from Him.
All other system have some good part but they lack in something.

What is the other system to reach him?

The other system require that you get rid of your karma life after life by being a good person that in the meantime does not build any more karma along the way.
That is possible but next to impossible because if you take it easy and do not have a system that help you to get rid of your karma in a short time you will fail easy although some people may make it.

And why does this sound a lot like a Christian's "You could believe if you really wanted to" argument?

I don't like that approach.
It doesn't apply to me.

And yet people are living quite well without it, and are able to function normally if they compensate the (very much physical) lack of melatonin secretion.

Is not an ideal situation.
I wouldn't even want to think about living without it.

The article you quoted is first of all irrelevant to this argument, as it does not explain what should happen if the pineal gland were removed, except when it says that children show an earlier onset of maturity - but it doesn't have to do with people being zombies!

Other than that, the article doesn't clearly cite any sources, opens up the with very big, unsupported statements (which are completely mystical/religious in nature) and is full to the brim with some of the least sound logic I have ever heard, like this statement here:

Even physical science is not clear about how the consciousness works or exist.
In fact this science know next to nothing.
Evidence can only come from intuitional science.

Cleaning up the pineal gland is useful for those wishing to develop their multidimensional perception. The Pineal gland will naturally make its own DMT when fully operational and we will be able to remain in a visionary state most of the time. An awakened pineal gland brings the ability to consciously astral travel, explore other dimensions, foresee the future...

Like seriously who writes this stuff? If you get high on endogenous DMT, you are not having a spiritual experience. You're simply high on DMT and hallucinating. Jeez.

The article is talking about cleaning the gland which can only happen by working on the gland in a natural way such as yoga while you talk about the masturbation way in form of DMT.
You just don't get it Luc, do you?  

Slow down. You still have to demonstrate that consciousness is separate from the brain and can exist independently from it for your famous car analogy to be indeed valid. So let's put this point on hold until you have done so.

The consciousness can not separate from the brain as far as you are alive.
It only separate when the body die.
As you leave you car when it rot away also the consciousness do the same when you body goes to the dogs.  
NDEs show that this is a reality.

Awareness in these people who had an NDE is there all the time from the time that they leave their bodies to the time that they re enter their bodies.
There is no such a thing as recover.
There is instead a resuscitation.
Recover means that these people never really died which is not the case as doctors said that these people really died.

It might be so, but it also might not. There is no proof for any of your statements, and the materialistic alternatives (which I stated in the previous posts) are perfectly valid, as demonstrated by the fact that you're avoiding the question with more assertions, without any proof to be seen.

Proofs are there Luc.
As far as doctors declare a person dead and after sometime that person come back it clearly means that is all about resuscitation.

Personal experiences are not objective evidence. They, more often than not, are biased, inaccurate and unhelpful. This is also the case with NDEs, seeing as they seem to be strongly influenced by the subject's culture and beliefs.

How about you read what the objective conditions of these patients actually are? I cited the articles in one of my previous posts. Are you so closed-minded and dogmatic that you can't even think that this kind of approach might be correct?

Wrong again Luc.
Read my previous post in which I answer to Yog.

And yet there's this guy who's had Ketamin and then (for separate reasons) had an NDE and says that he experienced the exactly same things!

Do you trust his personal experience? If not why do you not try Ketamin? Remember that the statements you're making have to be tested!

I do trust personal experiences when these are corroborated by many other people.
In that case that doesn't apply.

[Angrboda]

Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective.
You have no imagination of how to proceed to uncover the truth.
No idea of whatsoever.
Nothing and yet you pretend to know how to know the truth.

You know, for someone who regularly derides masturbation, you spend an awful lot of time jerking off.

There are many reasons that I personally would not make a good detective, none of them having to do with a lack of imagination or acumen.

So let me give you few tips.
First you have to listen to more people as possible so you will be able to understand the direction to proceed.
When you find so many people coming from different grounds that never met each other and their stories point in only one direction then you got to agree that they say the truth.

Or 'you got to agree' that there is a confounding variable.  You're not very good at this detective game either.

Some of these people were believers, other non believers and many other were in between so they were people not interested in believing or non believing and yet all of them experienced God and now they all believe.
Not only that but almost all are interested in spirituality rather than religions.

Gee, I can't imagine an alternative explanation which could account for that.  

If you would have even a little bit of feeling for detective acumen then by now you would understand that NDEs are real because these experiences point in the same direction.

The fact that you have found yourself ensconced in a group of people that believe the same thing and your only solution is, "It must be true!" shows what a pitifully poor detective you are.

Unfortunately Atheists lack acumen.  

Unfortunately, asserting bullshit is all you're good at.

The same failing goes by believing that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it.
Failing after failing after failing.  

Got an answer to the question yet, jerkoff? How do you know there is a qualitative difference between NDEs experienced by people who are clinically dead and experiences by those who are not clinically dead?

[Little Rik]

Most of you guys could not possibly work as a detective.
You have no imagination of how to proceed to uncover the truth.
No idea of whatsoever.
Nothing and yet you pretend to know how to know the truth.

You know, for someone who regularly derides masturbation, you spend an awful lot of time jerking off.

There are many reasons that I personally would not make a good detective, none of them having to do with a lack of imagination or acumen.

So let me give you few tips.
First you have to listen to more people as possible so you will be able to understand the direction to proceed.
When you find so many people coming from different grounds that never met each other and their stories point in only one direction then you got to agree that they say the truth.

Or 'you got to agree' that there is a confounding variable.  You're not very good at this detective game either.

Some of these people were believers, other non believers and many other were in between so they were people not interested in believing or non believing and yet all of them experienced God and now they all believe.
Not only that but almost all are interested in spirituality rather than religions.

Gee, I can't imagine an alternative explanation which could account for that.  

If you would have even a little bit of feeling for detective acumen then by now you would understand that NDEs are real because these experiences point in the same direction.

The fact that you have found yourself ensconced in a group of people that believe the same thing and your only solution is, "It must be true!" shows what a pitifully poor detective you are.

Unfortunately Atheists lack acumen.  

Unfortunately, asserting bullshit is all you're good at.

The same failing goes by believing that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it.
Failing after failing after failing.  

Got an answer to the question yet, jerkoff?  How do you know there is a qualitative difference between NDEs experienced by people who are clinically dead and experiences by those who are not clinically dead?

Easy Yog.
Those who are not dead yet can not experience an NDE because their consciousness is still stuck in the body-brain.
Only when the consciousness has separate and is free from the bondage of the body-brain then she is able to see the real thing.