Trans people & sports

[KUSA]

Brain structure of FTM transsexuals is more similar to cisgendered women than cisgendered men.

What exactly does that mean? Details please.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Remember that a fetus will start off female and end up male. But it is a non linear process.

Not that it's all too relevant, but this is simply not true. A person's biological sex is determined at conception by the presence or absence of the y chromosome. Males were never female in the womb.

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

[Amarok]

Not that it's all too relevant, but this is simply not true. A person's biological sex is determined at conception by the presence or absence of the y chromosome. Males were never female in the womb.

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

Indeed genetics does not favor this view

[Shell B]

So Shell B, is it right to say that you have absolutely no position on this, nothing to say about the subject and for all you know, the IOC could just as easily be correct as wrong?

I clearly have plenty to say on the subject. My position is that it requires more study, which all of the studies y'all love to quote corroborate.

Because if not then you are just trying to avoid stating a case or providing any evidence and are avoiding the burden of proof.

Oh, attributing a motive to my feelings on a subject, huh? Why do I have to be avoiding stating a case if I just don't think either side has enough evidence? You know absolutely nothing about my motives for anything unless I expressly state them to you.

At what point would you be happy to see MTF transsexuals compete against cisgendered women? If at all?

Who said I was unhappy about it now? Not everyone is so tied up in their emotions that they can't talk about something reasonably without having an emotional connection to the topic.

Brain structure of FTM transsexuals is more similar to cisgendered women than cisgendered men, despite their upbringing. This has been known for a long time now, and can even be scanned for now while the person is still alive.

Do you mean male to female? If so, you pretty much repeated what I said. There are differences in the brain. If not, I'm not sure. I've only ever heard that MTF ts have more "feminine" brains than "masculine."

Current best theories suggest the exposure of hormone 'washes' in the womb as the cause. Remember that a fetus will start off female and end up male. But it is a non linear process.

Eh, most theories do point to development in the womb being the big bang, so to speak. I'll pass on the biology lesson, though.

[Tiberius]

Not that it's all too relevant, but this is simply not true. A person's biological sex is determined at conception by the presence or absence of the y chromosome. Males were never female in the womb.

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

I think you have an extremely unscientific view of biological sex to be honest. What Catholic Lady said was correct. The XY sex-determination system is a legitimate system for determining biological sex in humans. At the moment of conception a baby has either XX or XY chromosomes that determine the biological sex of the baby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dif..._in_humans

A baby’s genetic sex is determined at the time of conception. When the baby is conceived, a chromosome from the sperm cell, either X or Y, fuses with the X chromosome in the egg cell, determining whether the baby will be genetically female (XX) or male (XY).

A fetus doesn't develop sexual organs until the 7th week after conception, but lack of sexual organs doesn't mean the fetus isn't genetically either a boy or a girl.

There are of course some exceptions for intersex and hermaphrodites, but I can't find anything that supports your claim that humans are conceived as "females" before turning into males.

[Isis]

Interesting.

[brewer]

Fighting may need to be the exception.

[Catholic_Lady]

Not that it's all too relevant, but this is simply not true. A person's biological sex is determined at conception by the presence or absence of the y chromosome. Males were never female in the womb.

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

Narrow minded view of biological sex? Lol, biological sex is specifically determined by the sex chromosomes. I'm not talking about gender identity. And yes, if a zygote/embryo/fetus has a y chromosome, he is biologically male. That's the whole definition of biological sex.

Saying we all start off as females is incorrect.

Holy crap, this is madness.

---

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

I think you have an extremely unscientific view of biological sex to be honest. What Catholic Lady said was correct. The XY sex-determination system is a legitimate system for determining biological sex in humans. At the moment of conception a baby has either XX or XY chromosomes that determine the biological sex of the baby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dif..._in_humans

A baby’s genetic sex is determined at the time of conception. When the baby is conceived, a chromosome from the sperm cell, either X or Y, fuses with the X chromosome in the egg cell, determining whether the baby will be genetically female (XX) or male (XY).

A fetus doesn't develop sexual organs until the 7th week after conception, but lack of sexual organs doesn't mean the fetus isn't genetically either a boy or a girl.

There are of course some exceptions for intersex and hermaphrodites, but I can't find anything that supports your claim that humans are conceived as "females" before turning into males.

Ah, thank goodness for you. I thought I was about to go crazy.

[The Valkyrie]

That's an extremely narrow view of biolgical sex. Genes may or may not get expressed throughout a lifetime or are expressed at certain times. This is why babies do not grow beards for example. There is also a stochastic mapping from genotype to phenotype. The Y chromosone also isn't devoted to sexual differences and encodes many other things as well.

It's like saying that no matter how badly you follow the recipe for souffle, you will always end up with a souffle, even if what you end up with is indistinguishable from a loaf of bread.

Narrow minded view of biological sex? Lol, biological sex is specifically determined by the sex chromosomes. I'm not talking about gender identity. And yes, if a zygote/embryo/fetus has a y chromosome, he is biologically male. That's the whole definition of biological sex.

Saying we all start off as females is incorrect.

Holy crap, this is madness.

---

I think you have an extremely unscientific view of biological sex to be honest. What Catholic Lady said was correct. The XY sex-determination system is a legitimate system for determining biological sex in humans. At the moment of conception a baby has either XX or XY chromosomes that determine the biological sex of the baby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dif..._in_humans


A fetus doesn't develop sexual organs until the 7th week after conception, but lack of sexual organs doesn't mean the fetus isn't genetically either a boy or a girl.

There are of course some exceptions for intersex and hermaphrodites, but I can't find anything that supports your claim that humans are conceived as "females" before turning into males.

Ah, thank goodness for you. I thought I was about to go crazy.

"Go"?

[John V]

If fairness, rather than political correctness, were their goal, you'd think they would have commissioned multiple high-quality studies by now.

Let's see, monozyotic male twins, both at the same physical level, both same sport athletes and one wants to trans. The number of available subjects must just be astounding. Simply falling out of the closet. 

Or, it just doesn't matter, except to people who will never compete against them. How many cis women athletes refuse to compete if a trans woman is entered in an event? They are the only people for whom it should matter and I don't see many/any up in arms.

You're pushing a false dichotomy. The fact that the best evidence imaginable isn't readily available doesn't mean that useful evidence would be impossible to collect.