Trans people & sports

[The Grand Nudger]

That's the IOC's newest response to ftm trans.  If you want in, you're in, no questions asked about your genitalia either at-birth or now- ftm don't have to be post op.  MTF trans may, someday, also not be required to be post op, so long as their testosterone is below a certain level for a given time.

I bet the first time a pre-op ftm crushes some asshole at his favorite sport he'll start bitching about her feminine advantages while doubling down on his clandestine doping routine...to avoid such embarrassing performances in future.  

[Shell B]

It's not surprising that a ftm trans hasn't crushed any records, to my knowledge, but we can just ignore that.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why isn't it surprising?  

If a person undergoes ftm hormone therapy they are buying -in- to the advantages that an mtf is opting out of...and we are proposing that there might be some residual advantage there...aren't we? Isn't that why we sanction female athletes for doping in the first place?

The weightlifter, for example, who holds the 90kg title total (who did get pinched for doping, btw, lol). Say she transitioned, and upped her testosterone levels accordingly? Do you think that she might have a competitive advantage over some of the male weightlifters in her newer, slimmer class? Her performance, as a cis female, is already within the range of olympic competition for a cis male in her weightclass.

[Shell B]

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

[paulpablo]

You have bad stats.  It's not your fault, there's just no integrity in MMa and their records don't always follow them or follow them accurately from division to division, organization to organization.  In any case, all I hear is you complaining that she doesn't have a positively atrocious record.  OFC she doesn't, she's a good fighter.  Every concern explicitly mentioned in thread about possible "trans advantages" is demonstrably untrue in her case (and she actually went through the fucking hoop of being the test subject herself), and that only leaves fellow competitors who credit god for victory but blame their poodles poor health for a loss.....and talking heads who, after the concens in thread are eliminated, are left with nothing but "yuck, that dude had a dick" and "this is all a global trans pc conspiracy!"

The only additional stats I can find on Falon Fox are another win at amateur level.  I have no idea where you'd find stats that contradicted the stats I provided to show they're unreliable or bad.  Although I haven't had much time to look into it.

[The Grand Nudger]

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

No, and I'm not sure why you'd think so from anything I posted, nor does that qualify as a response to the question I posed - and I've already commented on this question..in this thread, with very little to add.

In any case, in my opinion, the lack of trans athletes crushing their respective sports isn't surprising at all - just not for the reasons proposed..and the "coincidence" is more manufactured than actual.  Luarel Hubbard beat shitty competition.  No one there even approached the record.  Fallon Fox, in White's own estimation, isn't good enough for the ufc..she beats fighters with losing records.  There just aren't a whole lot of trans, fewer that compete at a professional level in some high profile sport, and fewer women overall who compete in professional sports.

If a talented cis female weightlifter underwent therapy you would -expect- that weightlifter to perform well in his new, male division..particularly if that weightlifter was already performing at a comparable level to that division -before- such therapy.  He would be allowed, for starters, higher relative testosterone levels.  Effectively..the wightlifter in question is already their equal...and that's at her pre-doped (or at least doped under threshold), pre op/therapy performance levels.  Why -wouldn't- she crush the competition, if the same causes are pointed to as a reason that an mtf trans might do so in their division?  That weighlifter exists, and does hold the current record.  Similarly, the UFC did pick up the woman who beat fox in her league..and if fox, for the purposes of mma..should fight men...then that girl ko'd a male in her own league - without- therapy or any operation.

---

The only additional stats I can find on Falon Fox are another win at amateur level.  I have no idea where you'd find stats that contradicted the stats I provided to show they're unreliable or bad.  Although I haven't had much time to look into it.

She has three wins at the amatuer level, two associated with a different organization, and used for promotional purposes..just like her current record, which doesn't reflect either of those other records.

[Shell B]

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

No, and I'm not sure why you'd think so from anything I posted, nor does that qualify as a response to the question I posed - and I've already commented on this question..in this thread, with very little to add.

Okay.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Okay, tongue out of cheek now.  I have no idea if it is fair for trans women to compete in women's sports events.   Of course one could question whether there is such a thing as 'regular' women.  Some are born with just one x chromosome and others with three of them, while the majority have two x.  Should sports authorities concern themselves with such differences?  Should there be different events for them?  Then there are the chromosomal male persons whose bodies do not respond to the presence of testosterone in the usual way and so physically present as female.  Do they compete with men, with women or in their own event?  Then there are the many other ways things can work out known as inter-sex.  At some point don't you just have to say "well, fuck it"?  If you look and feel like a woman, maybe that just has to be good enough.

That was what I was (badly) trying to get at. Genes aren't that the sole determinant about how someone should be classified. Why no call for separare competitions for anyone vaguely intersexual?

---

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

How do you know they haven't already in the past? And what's stopping a cisgendered woman from taking testosterone with no intention on transitioning but to gain an unfair advantage?

[Shell B]

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

How do you know they haven't already in the past? And what's stopping a cisgendered woman from taking testosterone with no intention on transitioning but to gain an unfair advantage?

Well, I guess they secret won then, huh? Have they won? Do you have some evidence of this? No? Well, how do you know Superman hasn't participated in the Olympics? How do you know you're not really an alien? Why do you think that's a logical response? That second part has fuck all to do with what anyone is talking about. Cis people cheating is an entirely different topic, and there is plenty to stop them.

[paulpablo]

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

No, and I'm not sure why you'd think so from anything I posted, nor does that qualify as a response to the question I posed - and I've already commented on this question..in this thread, with very little to add.

In any case, in my opinion, the lack of trans athletes crushing their respective sports isn't surprising at all - just not for the reasons proposed..and the "coincidence" is more manufactured than actual.  Luarel Hubbard beat shitty competition.  No one there even approached the record.  Fallon Fox, in White's own estimation, isn't good enough for the ufc..she beats fighters with losing records.  There just aren't a whole lot of trans, fewer that compete at a professional level in some high profile sport, and fewer women overall who compete in professional sports.

If a talented cis female weightlifter underwent therapy you would -expect- that weightlifter to perform well in his new, male division..particularly if that weightlifter was already performing at a comparable level to that division -before- such therapy.  He would be allowed, for starters, higher relative testosterone levels.  Effectively..the wightlifter in question is already their equal...and that's at her pre-doped (or at least doped under threshold), pre op/therapy performance levels.  Why -wouldn't- she crush the competition, if the same causes are pointed to as a reason that an mtf trans might do so in their division?  That weighlifter exists, and does hold the current record.  Similarly, the UFC did pick up the woman who beat fox in her league..and if fox, for the purposes of mma..should fight men...then that girl ko'd a male in her own league - without- therapy or any operation.

---

The only additional stats I can find on Falon Fox are another win at amateur level.  I have no idea where you'd find stats that contradicted the stats I provided to show they're unreliable or bad.  Although I haven't had much time to look into it.

She has three wins at the amatuer level, two associated with a different organization, and used for promotional purposes..just like her current record, which doesn't reflect either of those other records.

So that would still mean she's done more than win every now and again. She's only had one loss out of all those wins.