Trans people & sports

[I_am_not_mafia]

How do you know they haven't already in the past? And what's stopping a cisgendered woman from taking testosterone with no intention on transitioning but to gain an unfair advantage?

Well, I guess they secret won then, huh? Have they won? Do you have some evidence of this? No? Well, how do you know Superman hasn't participated in the Olympics? How do you know you're not really an alien? Why do you think that's a logical response? That second part has fuck all to do with what anyone is talking about. Cis people cheating is an entirely different topic, and there is plenty to stop them.

My point is that it is not always obvious who is transsexual. The whole point of transitioning is to blend in as the gender that matches your gender identity. Your response further demonstrates your ignorance on the matter and how you have in mind people who clearly still have the body characteristics of their birth gender. Despite what you say, transsexuals are not the new kids on the block, they have been transitioning for at least since the 50's. I don't know if transsexuals have won or competed in the past without people knowing, but I wouldn't like to suggest that they haven't.

[Little lunch]

It would be a losers bet, I sure as shit wouldn't, lol.

Agreed some of the lame stuff the anti trans come up with it's almost as loopy as people who say "if we let gays marry how will you stop people from marrying a toaster oven" same shit different pile really

That's a bit random.

[paulpablo]

She hasn't won something in a big way every now and again though,

She cranked a girl once and people lost their shit.

she's won more than every now and again and lost less than every now and again.  She's lost one and won 8 that you know of. 

-she's won something in a big way..a grand total of once...and even that's suspect..since her competitors are considered to be second class competitors (or worse).  

I tend to lean in agreement with what a lot of people have said on this thread concerning the fact that I don't think that advantage necesserily means an unfair fight, some women have more testosterone than others naturally and I don't know where the line should be drawn although I admit to not be an expert in the subject.

What advantage, what trans advantage does she have?  Hell, what advantage does she have period.  Shes not bigger, she's not a "better" shape, you understand that her hormone levels aren't at issue, and her bones are no more or less an advantage than that possessed by the darker fighter™ in an inter-racial match.  

What advantage.....?

But even with that being my perspective it seems dishonest to say that Falon Fox has won in a big way everynow and again when she's lost one fight out of eight.

She's not good enough for the UFC, not even close, not even against women, or so the party line goes.  What "seems dishonest" to you is just a recounting of how the hubbub began for her.

If you think winning eight fights is winning something once, I don't know what to say to that.

I haven't said there is an advantage in being trans, my point was that beyond the fact of their being ANY advantage in between fighters it might not make an unfair fight.  Fighters agree to fight other fighters who have a reach, height and muscle advantage all the time and win.


If there's some medical experts on the one hand who say there's a decrease in muscle mass and bone structure and that might make them more able to compete against females, then there's people who have careers in fighting, martial arts experts, plus the people who have fought trans opponents saying there is an inherant strength advantage, who would I be to stand in the middle of that argument and say I know more than either of those groups?

Here are some points from Falon Fox's wikipedia, mirroring all the points I've made.

UFC president Dana White claimed that "bone structure is different, hands are bigger, jaw is bigger, everything is bigger" and said "I don’t think someone who used to be a man and became a woman should be able to fight a woman.”

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: “I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right,” she stated. “Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch…

UFC color commentator and stand-up comedian Joe Rogan and MMA personality Bas Rutten came out in strong opposition to Fallon Fox receiving licensing,[8] with Rogan stating “First of all, she's not really a she. She's a transgender, post-op person. The operation doesn't shave down your bone density. It doesn't change. You look at a man's hands and you look at a woman's hands and they're built different. They're just thicker, they're stronger, your wrists are thicker, your elbows are thicker, your joints are thicker. Just the mechanical function of punching, a man can do it much harder than a woman can, period.” Current state of research indicates that some transwomen have less muscle strength and bone density than men, even though still higher than women, prior to medical treatment. The researchers concluded that this was likely due to a difference in lifestyle, not some innate biological difference in transwomen

Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes. He stated in Time magazine that “Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males” and was quoted as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete “surgical anatomical changes […], including external genitalia and gonadectomy” (see sex reassignment surgery) and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist. In general concurrence with peer-reviewed scientific literature, he states this to be "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". Vilain reviewed Fox's medical records and said she has “clearly fulfilled all conditions.”[/url] When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons".Fox herself responded to the controversy with an analogy in a guest editorial for a UFC and MMA news website: As an ethnic group, African American women statistically have bone mineral densities close to Caucasian males[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#cite_note-21] and bones more resistant to fracture, which, however, does not imply an unfair advantage of individual African Americans, either.

I don't know the answer to if they have an advantage or not, plus as I just said in the previous paragraph, I don't know how you'd define a fair fight anyway on the basis that people are going to have advantages in fights whatever happens anyway.

I imagine a reason why Falon hasn't fought in UFC is because the main people in that organization have said transexuals have an unfair advantage as shown in the quotes by Dana White and Joe Rogan.

Ronda Rousey won't fight her, not because she believes she's not a good enough opponent but because she believes she may have an advantage over naturally born females.

I don't necesserily agree with their opinions but I don't dismiss their expertise in fighting either.

[Shell B]

Well, I guess they secret won then, huh? Have they won? Do you have some evidence of this? No? Well, how do you know Superman hasn't participated in the Olympics? How do you know you're not really an alien? Why do you think that's a logical response? That second part has fuck all to do with what anyone is talking about. Cis people cheating is an entirely different topic, and there is plenty to stop them.

My point is that it is not always obvious who is transsexual. The whole point of transitioning is to blend in as the gender that matches your gender identity. Your response further demonstrates your ignorance on the matter and how you have in mind people who clearly still have the body characteristics of their birth gender. Despite what you say, transsexuals are not the new kids on the block, they have been transitioning for at least since the 50's. I don't know if transsexuals have won or competed in the past without people knowing, but I wouldn't like to suggest that they haven't.

Yes, I'm ignorant, but you're just throwing out guesses without evidence. This post is ridiculous on so many levels. In it, you suggest that my rather short post mentioned characteristics of birth gender and that trans are "the new kids on the block." Seriously, you're arguing with yourself, at this point.

---

Agreed some of the lame stuff the anti trans come up with it's almost as loopy as people who say "if we let gays marry how will you stop people from marrying a toaster oven" same shit different pile really

That's a bit random.

This whole anyone who wants to talk about it is anti-trans thing is getting old. If you're so insecure that you can't even discuss things without seeing hate behind every post, you need to get off the Internet.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you think winning eight fights is winning something once, I don't know what to say to that.

Christ Paul, you didn;t read what IU wroite the first time, or the second time..will the third time be th trick, or is this another one of those moments that you drag out for five pages?  

I haven't said there is an advantage in being trans, my point was that beyond the fact of their being ANY advantage in between fighters it might not make an unfair fight.  Fighters agree to fight other fighters who have a reach, height and muscle advantage all the time and win.

K, just looking for clarification.

If there's some medical experts on the one hand who say there's a decrease in muscle mass and bone structure and that might make them more able to compete against females, then there's people who have careers in fighting, martial arts experts, plus the people who have fought trans opponents saying there is an inherant strength advantage, who would I be to stand in the middle of that argument and say I know more than either of those groups?

People disagree, who am I to judge.  Well, either you think that you're the kind of person who can assess the case and think rationally and critically about it or you aren't.  

I don't know the answer to if they have an advantage or not, plus as I just said in the previous paragraph, I don't know how you'd define a fair fight anyway on the basis that people are going to have advantages in fights whatever happens anyway.

I imagine a reason why Falon hasn't fought in UFC is because the main people in that organization have said transexuals have an unfair advantage as shown in the quotes by Dana White and Joe Rogan.

Yes, the main people in that organization have said demonstrably untrue things, both about transgender athletes in general, and fox in specific.  That those people..in specific, are motivated by hateful bigotry and ignorance is clear -from- those comments - and this is something that is and will be true regardless of the status of the overall controversy of ftm trans in sports. If I wanted to establish that others mirrored my points, I would definitely -not- point to what comments that icky phobes and myself had in common.

Ronda Rousey won't fight her, not because she believes she's not a good enough opponent but because she believes she may have an advantage over naturally born females.

I don't necesserily agree with their opinions but I don't dismiss their expertise in fighting either.

Their expertise in fighting does not make them experts on gender, on trans athletes, on biology, on anatomy..or..really, anything...so if that's what we're discussing...and we are, you can safely dismiss their opinions.  I'll say this again, in their expert opinions, god helps them win and their poodles poor state of mind causes their loss.  

This is the caliber of the peoples opinions, even within their own specialty, whom you are reluctant to dismiss. They point to something that fox is good at, for example...the clinch, as though the simple fact that she was good at something, or better at it than other competitors that person has faced..as the trans advantage™. Smith didn't have any trouble with her manly clinch, when she handed Fox her first loss. Still, she bitched. Her trans advantage™ proposal was "she hit hard".

[paulpablo]

What you said is that she and Hubbard won something in a big way every now and again.

She's won mma fights, that's the thing she's won. And in a fairly big way, a lot of her wins were knock outs or TKO.

The disagreement I have is with the last part. Every now and again. Winning 8 fights and losing one can't reasonably be called winning every now and again.

I do have enough reasoning skills and critical thinking skills, and experience enough to know that I'm not interested enough to find out about research done on transsexual fighters.
I can just go off medical experts who are sometimes wrong, and athletes opinions on other athletes who are also sometimes wrong.

In the same way I wouldn't try to intervene in an argument between Tiberius and Alex K about maths, I wouldn't know where to begin to talk about a subject I myself have very little interest in or done any research on.

I've spent minutes looking up someone else's research online, that's all I've done.

The one thing I have interjected is similar to what you said in the sense that I don't think an advantage necessarily makes a fight unfair anyway. I'd leave that for other people to argue over what constitutes fair markers to put in place divisions in fighting leagues and so on.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Yes, I'm ignorant, but you're just throwing out guesses without evidence. This post is ridiculous on so many levels. In it, you suggest that my rather short post mentioned characteristics of birth gender and that trans are "the new kids on the block." Seriously, you're arguing with yourself, at this point.

You don't even remember what you've said in the past do you.

Something fairly new is happening, and that fairly new thing is trans people competing in sports. Women have always been there. Therefore, trans women are being singled out as the new kids on the block.

[Shell B]

you suggest that my rather short post mentioned characteristics of birth gender and that trans are "the new kids on the block."

I do remember saying it. You responded to my latest post, not that post. We were talking about whether ftm trans have broken records. You want to just assume that they have. I say there aren't any records of it that I know of. You say they aren't the new kids on the block and that they have been doing this since at least the 50s, which has fuck all to do with whether they've set any records, and does make them the new kids on the block. The Olympics have been around for thousands of years.

Again, you're just arguing with yourself. You don't have any sources where a ftm has set or broken a record, then piss off. Conjecture from you is worth about as much as dried up dog shit to me.

[I_am_not_mafia]

you suggest that my rather short post mentioned characteristics of birth gender and that trans are "the new kids on the block."

I do remember saying it. You responded to my latest post, not that post. We were talking about whether ftm trans have broken records. You want to just assume that they have. I say there aren't any records of it that I know of. You say they aren't the new kids on the block and that they have been doing this since at least the 50s, which has fuck all to do with whether they've set any records, and does make them the new kids on the block. The Olympics have been around for thousands of years.

Again, you're just arguing with yourself. You don't have any sources where a ftm has set or broken a record, then piss off. Conjecture from you is worth about as much as dried up dog shit to me.

Try reading my posts properly for once. I have only ever said that we do not know whether transsexuals have been competing and breaking records.You are both simultaneously straw-manning me and adopting my position once called out on your assumptions. I only said that transsexuals have been transitioning since the 50's. After all, for all we know MTFs might have been competing since the 50's and not doing very well. After all, I did say

My point is that it is not always obvious who is transsexual. The whole point of transitioning is to blend in as the gender that matches your gender identity.

Whereas you're saying that  FTMs are definitely not setting records.

So, your position is that it's just a coincidence that ftm trans aren't setting the same kind of records?

[Little lunch]

Maybe we should just close this thread up.
We don't seem to be getting anywhere and personally, I like everyone involved (and totally respect their intelligence) and I'd hate to see it descend any further. :-)