Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[FatAndFaithless]

I think some people are just having a hard time grasping the concept of being outside the dimension of time and therefore being able to see it all at once. Which is understandable, since we live within time and don't have the ability to comprehend a dimension that is outside of it. To us, it's past, present, and future, one moment happening at a time... and if we imagine someone "knowing the future" we imagine it means they know because they will control it, hence, we don't have free will. But there is a difference between that and someone being outside of time entirely and "knowing the future" because to them there is no future to begin with - they can see everything happening all at once.

Do you understand what it means to "be outside of the dimension of time"?  Or if that makes any real sense or if it's possible?  Or is this all just what you're (and Catholic doctrine) is asserting?  It's one thing to assert something and another to prove or demonstrate it.  

I'd like to see why you think it's possible to be outside of the dimension of time let alone that there is an entity already there.

[Edwardo Piet]

I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

But of course this gets to the point where that's what you're asserting what God's nature is, and actually demonstrating this assertion is another ball of wax entirely.

.... more to the point... if he can see what we WILL do for ANY reason then we were never free to do otherwise BY DEFINITION.

[Valyza1]

We're free to do exactly one thing? So we're free to have no alternative options? LOL that's the very definition of the EXACT OPPOSITE OF freedom.

Considering the idea of acting according to God's Will to be "one thing" is like considering living your life to be "one thing". You can categorize a whole bunch of things under a single title and call it "one thing", that doesn't mean it isn't also many things. How would YOU define freedom?

 

If our very identities are determined by God, then we can't help but will things according to His design (namely his design of us).  We can choose whatever we want (Free Will), and what we want has been determined by God (Determinism)

Your attempt at an explanation isn't worthy of doing a logic-battle with one of my worst brain farts.

The interesting thing is I'm not even trying to justify theism. I'm just speaking hypothetically about the apparent conflict between Free Will and Determinism and explaining my thoughts about how they can co-exist. I'm not interested in doing a "logic-battle" with anyone.

[Edwardo Piet]

Considering the idea of acting according to God's Will to be "one thing" is like considering living your life to be "one thing". You can categorize a whole bunch of things under a single title and call it "one thing", that doesn't mean it isn't also many things.  How would YOU define freedom?

You said God knows the future and our actions and choices are predetermined. That means we're free to do what God predicts and ONLY what god predicts. That's one thing.

The interesting thing is I'm not even trying to justify theism.  I'm just speaking hypothetically about the apparent conflict between Free Will and Determinism and explaining my thoughts about how they can co-exist.  I'm not interested in doing a "logic-battle" with anyone.

The only version of free will that is NOT in conflict with determinism is by definition: Compatabilism.

Which is a type of free will that no one doubts anyway. It's not a philosophical problem. It's a philosophical way of dodging a problem rather than dealing with it.

And it's a definition of free will that's so lax that it means we're free even though we can't do otherwise.

You can call that free however much you like... but you're basically just labelling normal willpower as "free will" rather than actually addressing the question.

Compatabilism is a godamn side-step.

[vorlon13]

God's Perfect Plan is so cunningly clever that regardless of the jumps to seemingly other non-correlated time lines, the ultimate conclusion is still pre-ordained.

All roads lead to Rome the answer that the ultimate question, you know, life !  the universe !! everything !!!


42 !!!!!

[Harry Nevis]

I think that's a part of being omnipotent.

I will ask my pastor the question as another person here suggested. Still uncertain about question in first post.

Being omnipotent means He has the power to control everything (within His own nature), but that doesn't mean He does. He chose to give us free will and let us make our own choices. He chose to create a natural world where things happen as they will.  

Yes, ask your pastor.

---

Sometimes I really do wonder why terrible things really happen. But God's mind must really be complex and His mind escapes me.

One way or another, things will all work out in the big picture. We don't know how, but we do know that God would never have created the universe if it wasn't all meant to be for ultimate good in the end.

You really need to see the difference between "know" and "believe".

[Edwardo Piet]

If the future is determined then it is never true to say "I could have done otherwise".

[Aroura]

You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

If he already knows what you will chose, then are you free at the point in time when you come to that choice?  Could you actually even chose something else?

The answer to both are no.  If he can see your choice, and that choice is fixed and not a variable, then it is not a choice, it is a predetermined action that you cannot change, or chose something different when the time comes.  That is the very definition of predetermined.

If he could see all our possible choices, but not know which we chose until WE chose it, then we could have free will, in the god scenario.  But it sort of kills all his Omni's, so you reject this idea, too.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it, too.  Pick one.  Either God has a master plan and he already knows all final outcomes (not all possible outcomes), or you have free-will.  Not both.

I know this is a bit tricky to understand.  When confronted with the idea of determinism, it literally took me months (and possibly years) of reading, arguing, watching video explanations, and more arguing to really, REALLY understand it. I rejected it for a long time before starting to understand and absorb it.  

It is probably one of the very hardest "easy" concepts anyone ever comes across, because it is butting up against one of your core beliefs, so you simple try to make it all fit. I'm just pointing out that there are bits poking out, you've put a round peg into that square hole, and it doesn't really fit.  Look at it careful.  
Explain to yourself first, and then anyone here, how anything is free if it cannot be any other way because the outcome is already known by God.

(Although I do not think god exists, I think it may help people understand the world better if they become able to note the logical inconsistencies within their own beliefs, one of the very hardest things to do for anyone!)

[Harry Nevis]

You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

Which is really no explanation at all, just rationalization.  What exactly is "outside time"? Nothing that we can experience, or even begin to understand, but it makes your beliefs internally consistent in your mind.

[Edwardo Piet]

If he could see all our possible choices, but not know which we chose until WE chose it, then we could have free will, in the god scenario.  

Well... not if the future is still determined. Whether he can see it or not... if the future is determined we cannot do otherwise.

Also... if the future is undetermined... we can't do otherwise in any meaningful sense either! If the future is undetermined that means we can't determine our futures either.... quantum randomness controlling our actions is just as unfree!

As Sam Harris has said... to paraphrase him: The free will that most people believe in is not only impossible... but its not even possible to conceptualize... and the so-called ILLUSION of free will doesn't even exist. When people think that there's this illusion where it SEEMS like they're choosing from different options... they believe that but it's not what their experiences shows them if they actually pay attention. It's a delusion not an illusion. The illusion of free will is itself an illusion. There is no illusion of free will.

I myself have lost the illusion of that illusion. When thoughts pop into my head I know they're just popping into my head.... I know I'm not picking them and I know it NEVER SEEMED like I was.... I just made the non-sequitur most people make... I found the causes of my thoughts ultimately unknown and thereby assumed I must have chosen them.... but of course there's a regress that stretches back far past my consciousness... and when something occurs in my consciousness... it ultimately comes from unconsciousness.

I now genuinely feel like I observe my thoughts, sensations and actions rather than author them.... so no wonder I find mindfulness dumbfounding... lol. I'm already mindful. It's hard to escape the present now.

My life feels like watching a very mundane movie.