A Question From Atheists

[brewer]

There, fixed for you. Your claim that the universe = god is incorrect. Might as well claim a rock = god.

Oh, and guess what. You can't argue something into existence. There is no logical fallacy. Your fantasy remains a fantasy.  

I think I explained that it was not my intention to bring god into existence. Also you cannot say rock=god because that's not in any established dictionary, encyclopedia or source of knowledge. You cannot play with words. You need to refer to dictionaries, encyclopedia and other sources of knowledge to understand the meaning of words. In some cases like god, the definitions can vary drastically. 

Of course not. It's not you bringing it into existence. Your position is that god exists because the universe exists. That is a position, an argument. Your position is that god exists. Nothing you've said so far is convincing.  

Why can't I say rock = god? Are not rocks just a smaller part of the universe? What's wrong, don't like to think outside of the dictionary box you've created? (google: does the universe contain rocks and see what you get)

[nosferatu323]

What sort of belief is one in which you believe in the existence of the Universe?

I think this thread is done. But I saw there is a lot of dissatisfaction mainly because I didn't made any attempt to justify "God is the universe" so I thought I'd write something about it. There are many pantheistic religions (means they believe god is the universe) throughout the world which are very similar in their core beliefs and differ mostly in their rituals, etc. Pantheism is not the topic of this thread and I personally don't have much to say about it, but you can easily find various formulations of this belief using the below terms which might give you some insight that what it means to consider god as the universe.

• Spinozism (A robust philosophical formulation of pantheism by a western philosopher)
  
• Buddism (The term god is not usually used in various branches of Buddism, stuff like "absolute" is used instead,)
  
• Taoism (Taosim is also quite unreligious there is no worship and stuff, which might make it more appealing for an Atheist)
  
• Vedanta (philosophical formulation of pantheism as described in the Vedas pre-Judaism stuff, first origins of religion)
  
• Kabbalah (ancient stuff, mystical interpretation of Judaism, they believe this is the "truth" of Judaism) 
  
• Sufism (mystical and pantheistic aspect of Islam, they believe this is the "turth" of Islam)
  
• I guess there are pantheistic branches in Christianity that hold similar views, so you can search for it if you are interested
  
• Hinduism in general (Most Hindu traditions hold similar views, you can check them out also)
  

Disclaimer: The above list does not claim all the mentioned items are absolutely pantheistic. I have very limited information and knowledge about some of the above items, this is just a list to help someone get started learning more about pantheism. There might be inaccuracies and mistakes in my categorization. 

My personal opinion is that one must "get involved" to make sense out of it. It requires major transition and shift in the way you see the universe and your self to start making sense. Otherwise, no matter how much your read about it, it might be nothing more than some "philosophical nonsense" as you put it.

[ignoramus]

So God is the universe (everything, everywhere) but nowhere to be seen or heard or felt unless you do lots of study about him first?
We are all stardust. We ARE part the universe. I have no tingling sensations inside me with respect to a creator? My DNA also has no knowledge on this matter.
So I'm either NOT part of this universe or God isn't.

[The Grand Nudger]

My personal opinion is that one must "get involved" to make sense out of it. It requires major transition and shift in the way you see the universe and your self to start making sense. Otherwise, no matter how much your read about it, it might be nothing more than some "philosophical nonsense" as you put it.

Something "making sense" doesn't depend on any "major shift or transition" in an individual.  It either makes sense on it;s own, by it;s own merits..or it doesn;t.  

Anytime you find yourself telling someone that they have to squint real, real hard to see what you see....it's probably because what you see isn't there.  Pantheism makes -no- sense...but it doesn't have to, because it's just another god belief among many, all of which make absolutely no sense...and their not making sense has nothing to do with whether or not someone transitioned or shifted something about themselves.  Even if they did...pantheism would make as much sense as it did before they did so...which, just for reference..again, is zero sense.

If, by "making sense" what you actually mean..is that a person can transform themselves into someone so gullible and vacuous that it then -seems- to make sense...then sure, fine..but here again we see you have a problem with words. This nonsense, up above..frankjly, is the all to common insistence that if people don;t see that some god belief x is right, it;s because of some defeciency in themselves that they can remedy. It's bullshit, and it's fundamentally -offensive- bullshit. The funny thing about god beliefs, is that the peddlers often find themselves feeling very pious, and measured, and intelligent, and scholarly....while they;re actually the equivalent of some asshole on a sidewalk shouting obscenities at random passersby.

[nosferatu323]

So God is the universe (everything, everywhere) but nowhere to be seen or heard or felt unless you do lots of study about him first?
We are all stardust. 

Study can calm your mind with philosophical formulations, so you can start pursuing the quest of finding the answer of "how can god and the universe be identical?" in action.

We ARE part the universe. I have no tingling sensations inside me with respect to a creator? My DNA also has no knowledge on this matter.

So I'm either NOT part of this universe or God isn't.

I think this is a very good argument. I'd say you are not part of this universe, there is no you, there never was, you are just an imagination in your mind. The consciousness that you are experiencing in the present moment is not you. Inspect it, look very closely, what is you? if you look very closely and with enough persistence "you" will disappear and pantheism will start to make sense. At first "you" comes and goes but with enough persistence it gets silenced forever and the universe starts to shine. I know this might seem nonsensical to you. But that's the best answer I can give to this question.

[brewer]

I think this is a very good argument. I'd say you are not part of this universe, there is no you, there never was, you are just an imagination in your mind. The consciousness that you are experiencing in the present moment is not you. Inspect it, look very closely, what is you? if you look very closely and with enough persistence "you" will disappear and pantheism will start to make sense.  I know this might seem nonsensical to you. But that's the best answer I can give to this question.

Oh good lord! The edge has been breached.

[ignoramus]

OK, 323, but have you also considered the elephant in the room?
Maybe everything is exactly how it is without the need to philosophise? It is possible.

What makes the universe the ultimate truth? It's just stardust?

Again, everything hinges on someone's underlying notion of ID or independent conscious entities. Soul?
Otherwise you wouldn't need to do the gymnastics to explain me away as -not- part of this universe.

If I'm not part of this universe, then I'm not natural? Everything in this universe -is- natural by definition.
This is why theists know this and try to shove their skydaddy outside of space and time, ie, not in this universe?

[nosferatu323]

OK, 323, but have you also considered the elephant in the room?

Well this is going off-topic. I hope it's fine.

Maybe everything is exactly how it is without the need to philosophise? It is possible.

I think elephant in the room is the case, but I guess the playing the philosophical games are necessary in order to realize they are not needed. 

What makes the universe the ultimate truth? It's just stardust?

What is ultimate truth? Is it a thing? I wouldn't include that term in the terminology of my belief. The universe is sufficient for whatever that you mean.

Again, everything hinges on someone's underlying notion of ID or independent conscious entities. Soul?

Not really, there is nothing OUTSIDE of universe and I'd say there is no independent entity except the Universe. 

If I'm not part of this universe, then I'm not natural? Everything in this universe -is- natural by definition.

I suggest that "You" are non-existent not unnatural. If you are concerned with your body, it's just part of the universe like a stone is. But I suggest the thing that you refer to when you say "I" is non-existent. Maybe you can verify it by close inspection?

This is why theists know this and try to shove their skydaddy outside of space and time, ie, not in this universe?

We are talking about Pantheism not Theism. Let's stick to it. There is nothing "outside" of the universe in a pantheistic belief.

[The Grand Nudger]

Study can calm your mind with philosophical formulations, so you can start pursuing the quest of finding the answer of "how can god and the universe be identical?" in action.

Are you ever going to get around to showing us any of those "philosophical formulations"?  That would help.  I'm certain that whatever they are they can be mind calming, ofc.

How is it that you, for example, think that god and the universe can be identical?   It's really useful, and convenient, to have you here.  Particulalrly if there;s some long and arduous process of studying and calming the mind before a person can reah that conclusion.  You're the cliff notes.  Everyone likes cliff notes.  Thing is, they're only useful, and convenient, if we actually see them.  

I think this is a very good argument. I'd say you are not part of this universe, there is no you, there never was, you are just an imagination in your mind.

He would still be part of and in the universe, and he would still exist in the universe, even if he were just an imagination in his mind...because the term "universe" explicitly denotes -everything-, even the "imaginations in our minds".  That's what the "uni" prefix means. What you are trying (and failing) to convey here can only be that he would not exist...as he thinks he does....in the universe. Well, no shit, most of us aren't half as attractive as we think we are, either.

The consciousness that you are experiencing in the present moment is not you. Inspect it, look very closely, what is you? if you look very closely and with enough persistence "you" will disappear and pantheism will start to make sense.

You think that pantheism can be proven...by proving some -other- thing?  That's not how that works.  I also think that self is something like "an imagination of mind"...and yet pantheism -still- makes no sense.  So how did that happen?  I did what you said would work...and it didn't.  

 At first "you" comes and goes but with enough persistence it gets silenced forever and the universe starts to shine. I know this might seem nonsensical to you. But that's the best answer I can give to this question.

It is nonsensical.  I won't be the only person here who thinks that you don't have the first clue what you're talking about...that your self has not been silenced, and that you've never seen the universe "shine". Is this, btw, one of those philosophical formulations? If something is shiny it's a god?  

If that's the best answer that you can give...the best answer you have isn't a very compelling one.

[Cyberman]

Yep. I'd hate to see his worse answers.