Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
155
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 2:05 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 12:08 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: I can dismiss white is white. I can dismiss 1=1. There is no problem in merely dismissing it. We are free human beings.
You could indeed, and of course we are. You would be wilfully and demonstrably wrong, but if that's what you want your life to be then go for it. You're pointing to things and concepts that can be demonstrated and upon which we would be irrational to disagree, then pointing to another concept (the universe is God) and claiming without any attempt at justification that it is the same as the others by default. That is so horrendously flawed, it's actually painful to watch.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 41
Threads: 1
Joined: June 22, 2017
Reputation:
0
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 2:49 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 11:24 am)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: (June 23, 2017 at 2:53 am)nosferatu323 Wrote: .6. We come across "The universe itself", no matter how much we try we can never conclude that "The universe itself" does not exist.
Just because we determine that the universe exists does not mean we have to accept an unsupported assertion that it is some kind of gawd. This is the flaw in your argument.
If someone wants me to believe the universe is some form of gawd, they need to provide evidence to support the claim. Add this proposition number 0 in the beginning to fix this:
0. The definitions for X that we pick up from the dictionary are assumed to be true. They are our premises. All the definitions that there are for X in authentic dictionaries and encyclopedias are assumed to be valid and do not need any sort of justification. They are the basis of our knowledge and true.
1. We want to talk about the existence of X,
2. first we look into dictionaries and encyclopedias to learn what X is before we start talking about it. So we can avoid meaning different things by X and remove the possibility of equivocation.
3. We find out that X has many different meanings, so we pick them one by one (not two of them at the same time) and investigate them separately. This way it's clear what we mean by X in each investigation.
4. First we pick up Zeus we investigate it, since there is no evidence to suggest Zeus exists, we conclude that Zeus does not exist. Great! This is resolved.
5. Next one, we pick up "The creator of universe" again using the same argument we conclude that "The creator" does not exist. we do this for many times and we are happy.
6. We come across "The universe itself", no matter how much we try we can never conclude that "The universe itself" does not exist.
7. We write a report of our investigation: "We discovered that 99 definitions of X lack the evidence for their existence, but 1 of them clearly exist"
8. So we can say "I don't believe in these gods [comes the list of 99 definitions]" but since we found 1 definition of god which is existent, we cannot assert "We do not believe in any gods"
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 2:53 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 2:53 pm by FatAndFaithless.)
What dictionary defines the universe as being a god? Since you've got such a hard-on for dictionaries, where does "godliness" appear in the definition of the universe?
You aren't talking about "the universe", as has been pointed out before. You're slapping on another term and its baggage for no reason.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 41
Threads: 1
Joined: June 22, 2017
Reputation:
0
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:07 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 2:53 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: What dictionary defines the universe as being a god? Since you've got such a hard-on for dictionaries, where does "godliness" appear in the definition of the universe?
You aren't talking about "the universe", as has been pointed out before. You're slapping on another term and its baggage for no reason.
In the above argument X is god, therefore we must seek the definitions of god. We are not concerned with the definitions of the universe.
This is from the Wikipedia Page on God: (let's consider Wikipedia is an authentic encyclopedia)
Quote:Pantheism holds that God is the universe and the universe is God
Pantheism is one of the main doctrines regarding the nature of god along with Theism and Deism
Posts: 67461
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:10 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 3:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 23, 2017 at 2:49 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: Add this proposition number 0 in the beginning to fix this:
0. The definitions for X that we pick up from the dictionary are assumed to be true. They are our premises. All the definitions that there are for X in authentic dictionaries and encyclopedias are assumed to be valid and do not need any sort of justification. They are the basis of our knowledge and true. You're now assuming what you seek to establish. Textbook circular argumentation.
Definitions are capable of very accurately describing things that do not exist, take dragons..for instance. Assuming a definition to be true makes no existential implications, and therefore cannot help you to establish what you seek to establish. Making the faux paus above entirely pointless. Even a circular argument will not yield the conclusion that you desire - and that's indicative of being in very, very dire straights, logically speaking.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:11 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 3:12 pm by FatAndFaithless.)
The universe exists. Pantheism asserts that the universe is god. You actually have to provide a reason for us to accept that second statement.
If my religion held that the universe was actually Bob, and that Bob is the universe, you probably wouldn't accept that would you?
You're defining a god into existence, literally. And if you aren't going to provide reasons as to why someone should believe "The universe is god," then I don't see the point of any conversation with you at all.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
150
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:11 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 3:13 pm by Whateverist.)
Just read the first page. I don't usually begin by saying I don't believe in gods. My first question is what's a god? I can't very well define for you what gods I don't believe in when I have no idea what we're even talking about. You show me a god, I'll tell you if I believe in it. But so long as it stays hypothetical then, nope, I don't believe in silly stuff.
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:12 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 3:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (June 23, 2017 at 2:49 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: Add this proposition number 0 in the beginning to fix this:
0. The definitions for X that we pick up from the dictionary are assumed to be true. They are our premises. All the definitions that there are for X in authentic dictionaries and encyclopedias are assumed to be valid and do not need any sort of justification. They are the basis of our knowledge and true. You're now assuming what you seek to establish. Textbook circular argumentation.
I mean the guy said his view is a tautology, with pride. Like it somehow makes it more convincing.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
150
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:14 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 3:12 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (June 23, 2017 at 3:10 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You're now assuming what you seek to establish. Textbook circular argumentation.
I mean the guy said his view is a tautology, with pride. Like it somehow makes it more convincing.
Oh yeah, tautolly!
Posts: 3064
Threads: 3
Joined: July 10, 2016
Reputation:
36
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 3:15 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 3:17 pm by Jesster.)
I think I'm done with this one. I'll happily have week-long conversations with theists, but only if they can have an honest and open discussion. Nothing anyone is saying here is getting through. It's a completely pointless endeavor.
I think I'll go talk to my left shoe instead. I'll get more out of that.
I don't believe you. Get over it.
|
