The Official "Damned Trump" Thread

[The Grand Nudger]

What's legal and what's possible are two different things, especially in a country as legally dysfunctional as the US is.

If Trump were even slightly more competent than he is he'd have been able to swing at least part of the military leadership to his side to be able to stage a coup, no matter what the law says.  Remember the Air Force is fundagelical central at all ranks and the army is heavily riddled with people who'd gladly destroy the country to recreate the South.

Bold-mine

And what is this brilliant assessment based on?

Based on repeated assessments and actions taken that show a consistent bias toward evangelical christianity from the academy to active duty in every single branch of our armed forces.  So much so that legal remedies were sought and taken and a national debate ensued with the christians themselves claiming that any restriction on their ability to proselytize in uniform was an infringement on their rights.  

Today, they have christian warrior basic training on base, and just a few weeks back the pentagon released a new revision of RFRA that essentially obliterates separation of church and state in the service. A servicemember can no longer register an effective civil rights complaint to their superiors (assuming their superiors aren't the offender in the first place) because the service is not allowed to use "christian wont stop trying to push his beliefs on me" as the basis -for- a complaint or any corrective action.

Pushing their religion is a genuinely held belief, you see.

Anecdotally, the further back in time you served the less likely you would be to see the effects of this as it's a recent push - which isn't to say that they haven't always been there doing exactly this, just that it was a bit more difficult to get away with prior to resurgence of hard christian dominionism these last 20 years.

[arewethereyet]

Bold-mine

And what is this brilliant assessment based on?

Based on repeated assessments and actions taken that show a consistent bias toward evangelical christianity from the academy to active duty in every single branch of our armed forces.  So much so that legal remedies were sought and taken and a national debate ensued with the christians themselves claiming that any restriction on their ability to proselytize in uniform was an infringement on their rights.  

Today, they have christian warrior basic training on base, and just a few weeks back the pentagon released a new revision of RFRA that essentially obliterates separation of church and state in the service.  A servicemember can no longer register an effective civil rights complaint to their superiors (assuming their superiors aren't the offender in the first place) because the service is not allowed to use "christian wont stop trying to push his beliefs on me" as the basis -for- a complaint.

Pushing their religion is a genuinely held belief, you see.

And the Army being made up primarily of people wanting to recreate the South?

And your first sentence negates Nomad's claim that it's the Air Force that is full of fundies.  You are saying it's across the board.

I didn't experience either way back during my time in uniform or later as a military wife...I am sure a lot has changed since the 80s.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can't speak to that, but yes..the air force is full of fundies, just like the rest of the service is full of fundies. Not so much a mob of fundies as they are committed fundies with powerful backers in government writing legislation that favors their cause at every level of government.

As far as the army having a confederate problem - also well documented - though, anecdotally, it wasn't a thing in my unit back in the day. That was helped along by much the same sort of legal manouvering by exactly the same actors in government. The pentagon recently..as in 2020, banned confederate flags on base, and not for no reason. So, win some lose some, I guess. Our willingness to accept this sort of shit has alot to do with whether or not we think it's good™ - so..even though the christian bias of our armed forces is a cut and dry issue, our society thinks that christianity is good, therefore it can't get too worked up about it and at least some people think it's a good thing. The stars and bars isn't in quite as good a pr place as christianity at present.

No matter to those motherfuckers, though, since both things were just two paths to their ends - and it's good to have a spare.

(the 80's definitely had a different service than the 00's)

[Spongebob]

I have a relative who is a retired Marine officer of 20 years. One of the reasons he retired out instead of staying in was the aforementioned affinity for both Christianity and Republican politics. According to him it's absolutely rampant. And why not? If you're going to order a bunch of men to die on a hill, what better purpose is there for them to die for but a god who will reward them in heaven.

[The Grand Nudger]

It boils down more to people being people even when they're servicemembers. Christian affiliation confers benefits and advancement opportunities - and a known objection to that affiliation harms the same.

That doesn't stop when people put uniforms on...and, fwiw, the service wants people who'll die for their country, not their god. That's abstract, ofc, none of us want to die and if any of us do it's more likely to be on account of the men to our immediate right and left.

Imagine if all of our muslim servicemembers decided that they were going to go all in for the ummah instead of the states or their buddies. Just not practical. Same with christians should we ever find ourselves in a war on christmas, though I guess they'll have to figure that out when we get there.

[Spongebob]

It boils down more to people being people even when they're servicemembers.  Christian affiliation confers benefits and advancement opportunities - and a known objection to that affiliation harms the same.  

That doesn't stop when people put uniforms on...and, fwiw, the service wants people who'll die for their country, not their god.  That's abstract, ofc, none of us want to die and if any of us do it's more likely to be on account of the men to our immediate right and left.  

Imagine if all of our muslim servicemembers decided that they were going to go all in for the ummah instead of the states or their buddies.  Just not practical.  Same with christians should we ever find ourselves in a war on christmas, though I guess they'll have to figure that out when we get there.

Oh, I get the hypocrisy.  All that god > country > family bullshit is just bullshit.  If most Christians behaved first and foremost by the standards that come from their book, we wouldn't have most of the nonsense we have today, including that ridiculous coup attempt.  But they do put on the show claiming god is great because, I don't know, maybe they think he's watching.

[The Grand Nudger]

They do it because their peers are watching (and the performative nature of that aspect of their religion is a huge part of why it's a problem when it comes to discrimination), none of them think that theyre being watched by god in reality - that would be a mental disorder.

I want to stress that these people aren't evil loons. They earnestly believe in what they're doing and do not see a problem with it. They're good and sane people doing a shitty thing - which is how most shitty things get done. We can pick up that remark and drop it like a blanket on the jackasses in dc, too.

For example, we see them trying to get people to list injuries by police so they can sue and we think "you cynical evil fuckers...you're always bitching about that". Well, no...they honestly expect to have their suits thrown out and they can then refer to that as yet another example of how the white man can't get justice. This is their new lost cause, or, really, the surviving expression of the old lost cause.

[Pat Mustard]

Imho Pences possible presidency is irrelevant looking at the damage that has been done over 4 years.

Who was Nazi Germanys last Reichspräsident and CiC? It wasnt Adolf. If you didnt know ... well thats exactly my point.

Grossadmiral Dönitz.

[Spongebob]

They do it because their peers are watching (and the performative nature of that aspect of their religion is a huge part of why it's a problem when it comes to discrimination), none of them think that theyre being watched by god in reality - that would be a mental disorder.

I want to stress that these people aren't evil loons.  They earnestly believe in what they're doing and do not see a problem with it.  They're good and sane people doing a shitty thing - which is how most shitty things get done.

On the second part, I don't doubt that at all.  I do believe they are indoctrinated with a political/religious/cultural mind virus that, while it isn't entirely bad, it is certainly not a clear representation of the principles our country was founded on.  It's a version of those principles and interestingly enough it doesn't really put god above country or even family.  Just as in the Roman Republic, people acted in ways that they must have believed were good for the republic, but were in actuality killing it because ultimately they were acting in self-interest.

On the first point, I always struggle with this.  Do they believe god is watching or not?  I've had this actual discussion with Christians I know (not military particularly) and to a person they all say yes.  I find it preposterous because they don't (almost to a person) behave in a way that reflects this.

[The Grand Nudger]

Performative language. Just as their "personal relationship with jesus" should not be taken to mean that they sit the fucker down for tea and have a chat.

They're identifying themselves and affirming their belief with the use of perfunctory utterances. The statement is not truth evaluable on it's own because it doesn't report what it purports to report..rather, it reports something else.

It's either that, or they're reporting an experience of being constantly watched by an omniscient observer who talks to them..and they need strong drugs and a walkman...50/50. It's not a rule, but when a person says something crazy but doesn't act crazy or crazy in accordance with what they've said...they generally aren't. Ultimately..it's their call which of the two they'd like to convince you (or other people) is an accurate description of what they're doing. I've had more than a few of those convos on the boards, it's infuriating. You try to take someone seriously and work out exactly what it is that they're saying, but no...no..they're fucking loony...they insist.