Better terminology for "Father and Son" ?

[The Grand Nudger]

You are as blind as Samsom was before he lost his sight, funny how losing something can give one a new perspective ain't it..

GC

Well, as yoda said to the apostle luke on dagobah - do or do not, there is no try.

[Godscreated]

 God doesn't torture so get over it, if you believe He does then go to the scriptures and show me the verses that says he does. god created you to live forever with Him and forever you will live. If you choose hell that one is on you. Your opinion of God counts for nothing and what worshiping God does for me is to help me grow into a better relationship with Him and thus a better person. I hope some day you have a change of heart, because you want be laughing if you wind up in hell.

GC

Hey, it's you that keeps claiming the gawd created hell (it's actually extra-biblical) and sends people there. You just attempt to justify the evil in gawd (or bat-shit crazyness in yourself). An infinite punishment for a finite crime is in no way just, nor is it the action of a loving being. Time-outs, grounding, suspension of privilege, hell I can even see the case for a quick swat on the ass. Burning for all eternity. Nope, not justice.

Besides, even if I thought the buy-bull is in any way accurate about these bat-shit crazy claims, I'm still not worried. Your concept of hell owes far more to Dante and the Divine Comedy than it does to the (allegedly) divinely inspired buy-bull.

 You have no idea what I believe hell to be like. I do affirm that God created hell, who else has the power to do so. Sin is against the everlasting God and as long as the sin goes unforgiven the sin is in effect. Same as a life sentence we give to criminals, if they did not die they would remain in prison forever because the crime isn't paid for. Fortunately we have One who has made it possible for our sin to be forgiven.

GC

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AHEM:

Leviticus 26King James Version (KJV)
26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

 Well done as far as posting what the covenant promises are. You haven't in any way shown that God made them do the things you said He did or even what the judgment was. Hint, it's not the things in the verses you posted, not directly.

GC

[Cyberman]

god created you to live forever with Him and forever you will live. If you choose hell that one is on you. Your opinion of God counts for nothing and what worshiping God does for me is to help me grow into a better relationship with Him and thus a better person. I hope some day you have a change of heart, because you want be laughing if you wind up in hell.

GC

Then I pity you, that you have such a negative opinion of your fellow human beings that you deem them deserving of horrific punishment for the most trivial of imaginary reasons. You have spent so much time trying to be a model christian, you have lost what it means to be human. For that, you have my pity and my disgust.

[Harry Nevis]

It isn't an opinion so much as a recognition of how the human mind actually works.  If your "soul" can't keep you self-aware in low-frequency deep sleep, not even to dream, what makes you think you'll have awareness when your brain is dead and producing no waveforms at all?

I believe that the soul is imaginary.  I believe that death is the end of the line.  I believe that life after death is only possible when the body has disintegrated and its molecules return to the ecosystem, to be recycled into some other organic form.  It is precisely the finite nature of our lives that makes them precious to me.  I do not consider them a dress rehearsal for an eternal life -- I see them as the life, something to be used wisely and as fully as possible.  I am simply not interested in being "me" forever when I can be many different things instead.

 Your atoms could very well become peat of something else, you want know it you want even know if they stay the dirt into which they will disappear,never to be anything but dirt. On the other hand I'll be resurrected with a new body for my eternal spirit to reside in eternally. Also you assume and might I say wrongly that the brain and spirit are the same thing.

GC

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That has to be one of the most desperate, inane answers I have ever seen.

Exactly when did truth become inane. Statement stands.

GC

When the insane think thy speak the truth.

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You'll give your gawd a pass on any evil, won't you?

 God has never done any evil, He is perfect and righteous, evil is impossible for Him to do.

GC

Just creates it, not does it?

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 God has never done any evil, He is perfect and righteous, evil is impossible for Him to do.

GC

It allegedly created an eternal torture chamber. That's evil on a scale to make Hitler look a saint! At least Hitler's victims got to die.

You worship an evil gawd, GC. What, I wonder, does that make you.

But he said it's not torture if you choose hell.

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It allegedly created an eternal torture chamber. That's evil on a scale to make Hitler look a saint! At least Hitler's victims got to die.

You worship an evil gawd, GC. What, I wonder, does that make you.

 God doesn't torture so get over it, if you believe He does then go to the scriptures and show me the verses that says he does. god created you to live forever with Him and forever you will live. If you choose hell that one is on you. Your opinion of God counts for nothing and what worshiping God does for me is to help me grow into a better relationship with Him and thus a better person. I hope some day you have a change of heart, because you want be laughing if you wind up in hell.

GC

The bible also says faith is a gift from god.  So if he didn't give me faith, it's his decision to send me to hell.

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Hey, it's you that keeps claiming the gawd created hell (it's actually extra-biblical) and sends people there. You just attempt to justify the evil in gawd (or bat-shit crazyness in yourself). An infinite punishment for a finite crime is in no way just, nor is it the action of a loving being. Time-outs, grounding, suspension of privilege, hell I can even see the case for a quick swat on the ass. Burning for all eternity. Nope, not justice.

Besides, even if I thought the buy-bull is in any way accurate about these bat-shit crazy claims, I'm still not worried. Your concept of hell owes far more to Dante and the Divine Comedy than it does to the (allegedly) divinely inspired buy-bull.

 You have no idea what I believe hell to be like. I do affirm that God created hell, who else has the power to do so. Sin is against the everlasting God and as long as the sin goes unforgiven the sin is in effect. Same as a life sentence we give to criminals, if they did not die they would remain in prison forever because the crime isn't paid for. Fortunately we have One who has made it possible for our sin to be forgiven.

GC

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Except for that parole thingy.

[The Grand Nudger]

Or sentencing maximums.....or early release, or you know, not going to prison for calling someone a cocksucker or all of his friends liars, lol. God somehow manages to be less just than human justice....which aint all that just itself.

You'd have to be trying awfully hard to get everything as completely wrong as the faithful insist god has.

[Astreja]

Your atoms could very well become peat of something else, you want know it you want even know if they stay the dirt into which they will disappear,never to be anything but dirt. On the other hand I'll be resurrected with a new body for my eternal spirit to reside in eternally. Also you assume and might I say wrongly that the brain and spirit are the same thing.

I do not believe you.

I believe that once you die, your atoms will endure but that "you" will be gone forever.  I believe that resurrection is a myth and that souls are likewise imaginary.  As I see it, there is only the physical brain, and only when that brain is alive do we have minds.

Your destiny is eternal insentience, unless your atoms make it into the bodies of other sentient beings, and it is highly improbable that all of your atoms would make it into the same sentient being at the same time, or that you would remember any details about the person you are now.

[Godscreated]

Your atoms could very well become peat of something else, you want know it you want even know if they stay the dirt into which they will disappear,never to be anything but dirt. On the other hand I'll be resurrected with a new body for my eternal spirit to reside in eternally. Also you assume and might I say wrongly that the brain and spirit are the same thing.

I do not believe you.

I believe that once you die, your atoms will endure but that "you" will be gone forever.  I believe that resurrection is a myth and that souls are likewise imaginary.  As I see it, there is only the physical brain, and only when that brain is alive do we have minds.

Your destiny is eternal insentience, unless your atoms make it into the bodies of other sentient beings, and it is highly improbable that all of your atoms would make it into the same sentient being at the same time, or that you would remember any details about the person you are now.

 That would be reincarnation, don't believe in that. Do and always will believe in the resurrection of the dead that will be reunited with their spirits. I understand where you stand but it doesn't make your stance any more valid because I understand.

GC

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God created you to live forever with Him and forever you will live. If you choose hell that one is on you. Your opinion of God counts for nothing and what worshiping God does for me is to help me grow into a better relationship with Him and thus a better person. I hope some day you have a change of heart, because you want be laughing if you wind up in hell.

GC

Then I pity you, that you have such a negative opinion of your fellow human beings that you deem them deserving of horrific punishment for the most trivial of imaginary reasons. You have spent so much time trying to be a model christian, you have lost what it means to be human. For that, you have my pity and my disgust.

 I do not want/need your pity nor disgust. I'm a much better human being because I have a relationship with God, I see more now than I ever did. I do not have a negative opinion as per deserving an eternal punishment, it's what will happen and I do not want to see anyone here finding themselves in hell. I'm sorry if you take my concern for your eternal life in any way other than a desire to help.

GC

[Astreja]

No, reincarnation has nothing whatsoever to do with recycling matter. I do not believe in reincarnation either, which I think is just as silly as "resurrection of the dead."

As for validity -- I have science on my side, and you have a book that features a Talking Snake™ in chapter 3 of Genesis.

And as for understanding, I think we're both just intellectually scratching the surface and will continue to just talk past each other without feeling what it's like to live on the other side of the divide.

[Ravenshire]

No, reincarnation has nothing whatsoever to do with recycling matter.  I do not believe in reincarnation either, which I think is just as silly as "resurrection of the dead."

As for validity -- I have science on my side, and you have a book that features a Talking Snake™ in chapter 3 of Genesis.

And as for understanding, I think we're both just intellectually scratching the surface and will continue to just talk past each other without feeling what it's like to live on the other side of the divide.

Notice that he completely ignored my post about personality changes after head trauma and dual personality after a corpus calloscotomy.

It doesn't fit his narrow-assed little world view, so he'll ignore it or deny it.

[Astreja]

Notice that he completely ignored my post about personality changes after head trauma and dual personality after a corpus calloscotomy.

I'm familiar with a few of those medical cases, and that's an excellent point:  Certain types of brain injury are capable of altering someone's "self," indicating that what's being called a soul is more probably a collection of acquired behavioural and thinking patterns stored in the brain tissue.

It also doesn't speak highly of a god that would, say, allow someone to suffer head trauma in a car accident and then send that same person to hell for behaviours and beliefs acquired as as the aftermath of that accident.