The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[bennyboy]

-According to testimonials [. . .]

 

/thread

(seriously, though, what is it about miracles that renders people unable to use cameras?)

[LastPoet]

Someone should have told Dominic Reis not to stare at the sun because it creates optical effects not optimal for walking around afterwards.

So does being a dumbfuck catholick.

Still, you would like to visit the last place of the knights templar. They kinda got to change nicks to the order of christ. Beautifull fortress. They have got enough riches to pose a threat to the guy in the hat.

If you have time, stand at Almuorol, in the middle of the Tagus. It was an arab fortress. The moors.

And then, the most powerful nation on earth elects Donald Trump. Please tell me I had gone out of the wagon and live in drunkland. I have no say, because I am not USian. How tha fuck can you let that happen? Explain to me? Oh right, follow the money heh Min?

[Whateverist]

---

TV interview 1960, Mr. Dominic Reis, of Holyoke, Massachusetts, taken from "Meet the Witnesses", Haffert, 1960:

“Did you hear that a miracle was predicted to take place at Fatima?”
“My father heard about it first. It was in the papers all over the country.”
“How far from Fatima did you live, Dominic?”
“I lived at that time near Porto, over one hundred miles away.”
“Were there very many people interested?”
“Yes. Suppose I explain from the beginning. I was 17 in May when it all began. Then in October, on the 11th, 1917, my father said to my mother, ‘We’re going up to Fatima. We’re going to see what happens.’”
“Had it been announced, Dominic, that there would be a miracle on October 13th so that everyone would believe?”
“That’s right. Lots of people thought it a lie. Lots of people was like... might as well say it... just like the government. The government didn’t believe it either.”
“But lots of people, like my mother and father, were all sensible in religion. And my father said, ‘We’re going up.’ And he decided for my mother and myself just one day before, on the 11th. On the 12th we left at nine o’clock.”
“Were there many people from your area who went to Fatima?”
“Yes. The train was full.”
“How did you feel about all this as a young man of 17? Did you think your parents were right?”
“I felt... I felt something was going to happen.”
“Was the prediction of this miracle announced in Church?”
“The Church said nothing at all... They were against it. If any Priest say anything about Fatima, even maybe something happen to him. Some churches in the area of Fatima were marred, stones thrown, anything to break down the coming of the people.” (Note: The government in Portugal at this time was similar to the Communist government which took over in Russia that same year.)
“Pardon repetition of this, Dominic, but it appears that one of the great facts of this day is that thousands of people, against almost insuperable obstacles, traveled on foot up this great mountain... over stones, opposed by soldiers, and in a cold rain. You had traveled with your family all the previous night and now, about what time did you come to where the miracle was predicted to happen?”
“We left Leiria at six o’clock in the morning. Was then only light rain.”
“Were there many people?”
“Oh, yes! The little fields, the rocks, and everywhere you look... you see people! Some with little things on their heads (food baskets etc.) We were all climbing that mountain just like nothing at all. Even I see people who did not expect to see anything, saying nothing will happen. And other people going all the way from Leiria without saying a word. I meet several people walking in silence, and some people...”
“When did you finally get to the Cova?”
“We get there around noon time. Between half past eleven to around noon time. When we finally get there, there were soldiers...“Everywhere we saw animals, trees, bushes. Very rough. And this National Guard, what we would call “weekend soldiers”...tried to stop us from going down into the Cova.”
“The crowd was too great for the soldiers to hold?”
“The crowd was breaking in one corner. When the soldiers move to protect that corner, another corner is breaking out. First thing you know, everybody got through.”
“Did the soldiers finally give up?”
“What happened, happened because they couldn’t control crowds... I was slightly wounded by one of the bayonets.”
“So finally you got down into the Cova with the crowd, and where did you go?”
“We got close to the tree where the children were. The three children we had heard about were there already...”
“The vision was reported to have appeared to these three children at that spot?”
“That’s right. On the side was a big tree, and little small trees around, and the children were there. And now it was raining harder. There was a good three inches of water where I stood, and mud on the ground.”
“Three inches of water on the ground?”
“Yes, three inches of water on the ground. I was soaking wet. I was... and then round noon time, the sun started breaking... we can see the sun...”
“Now it was raining just like you open a faucet at your house. Rain! And then suddenly the rain stopped. The sun started to roll from one place to another place, and changed blue, yellow, all colors! Then we see the sun come toward the children, toward the tree. Everybody was hollering out. Some start to confess their sins, ‘cause there were no Priests around there.”
“And the people started to confess their sins aloud, before everyone?”
“That’s right. Even my mother grabbed me to her and started to cry, saying, ‘It is the end of the world!’ And we see the sun come right into the trees. And then the little children get up and turn around to the people and told the people, ‘Pray and pray hard because everything is going to be all right.’ And then the children walk to the tree, and talk in the direction of the tree, and we see the children bend down just like bow to somebody, I don’t see what, but something was there because we see the children bend down, then we see the children move the lips to talk to someone.”
“Did you look at the sun without difficulty?”
“Yes, I could look at the sun without pain in the eyes. Everyone around me was making a tremendous noise. Because of all the noise, I was looking at the crowd as the sun was actually falling. Afterwards, I was told that it had turned upon itself and fallen down. But at that moment I saw it on my shoulder.”
“What did you think of all this?”
“The people around me were saying they thought this was the end of the world. They were very much afraid. Many
seemed to think, and were saying, that the revolutionaries were going to throw bombs on the people, as did happen later when there was bombings by the people running the government at that time. Many were standing, but many others were on their knees and were crying and calling on the Blessed Virgin.”
“How far away were you, Dominic, from where the children were?”
“I was, I’d say, between seventy-five and one hundred feet from the children and the tree.”
“Did you get a chance to get close to the children?”
“Yes, when everything was finished. And the sun rolled back again the way it came in ...”
“What did the people do when they saw it roll back into the sky? Did they stop crying out?”
“The people knelt down and prayed real hard. And then Lucia (the eldest of the children) said to pray hard.”
“Lucia said that God was too much offended?”
“That God was too much offended.”
“Here are some photographs, Mr. Reis. Is this the way you remember it?”
“That’s in my time. That’s the way it was there.”
“This next photograph, Dominic, was taken just a few minutes after the other. Everyone had begun to shout... they put their umbrellas down.”
“We put the umbrellas down... Lucia start to talk to the people, one here, one bunch there, and some started to kiss the little kid, and then the wind started to blow real hard...”
“Dominic, we have talked to many witnesses who were there. All speak of ‘the sun,’ but could it have been the sun...or just so much like the sun that they thought it was the sun?”
“Well, for my part, it was the sun. But whether just a light or not, there was something there. I know for sure. The way the trees were coming down, the way the... I don’t believe that the children would go to a tree and start moving lips to a tree. Must have been something there to talk to.”
“You described this great fire, or light, or ‘sun’ as rolling out of the sky. You said that people thought it was the end of the world.”
“It was a real sun like you see in the sky...”
“What about the colors...?”
“There were colors all around the sun. The sun rolled... and it was like the real sun... but the clouds didn’t go with the sun.
There were blue and different colors...”
“Did you think the world was going to be destroyed by fire?”
“Yes. Because... I can tell you one thing. My mother when she squeeze me, and say it’s the end of the world, I see like the sun almost on top of my shoulder.”
“Did all the people think they were going to be crushed by the sun?”
“That’s right.”
“But then, this matter of the rain and water to which so many testify. What happened with the water?”
“As soon as the sun went back in the right place the wind started to blow real hard, but the trees didn’t move at all. The wind was blow, blow and in few minutes the ground was as dry as this floor here.4 Even our clothes had dried. We were walking here and there, and our clothes... we don’t feel at all. The clothes were dry and looked as though they had just come from the laundry. I believed. I thought: Either I’m out of my mind or this was a miracle, a real miracle.”
“Of course, Dominic, you were only one of thousands of witnesses. Newsmen were there who experienced it. And two days later the newspaper, O Século, told how the sun danced. Atheists were converted, and soon the Soviets (this is the term used for them in Portugal at this time) went out of power. But in the 1960’s do you think the world is listening to this message?”
“I believe some, yes. I believe little by little some listen. But still quite a few all over the world don’t listen to it.”

---

Just wondering if you're actually responding to anyone in this thread or are you just copy pasta'ing this Fatima stuff?

I'm not really interested in this sort of thing myself.

[The Valkyrie]

Undeniable?

Nope. Definitely denied.

Three kids sharing a story and then mass delusion?

Hardly undeniable.

[Cyberman]

(seriously, though, what is it about miracles that renders people unable to use cameras?)

From SMBC:

[Nay_Sayer]

-Snipped for brevity-
 

Here is the real event this was stolen from:

• 5 young children claimed a "Meatball from the sky" appeared out of nowhere in a remote field in Peru where they were watching their animals, and the Meatball gave them a Pastafarian related message to relay to the people where they lived. This Meatball  also told the children to meet it in this same location on the 15th of the month for the next 7 months at the same time where she would tell them more. Of course no one believed the children when they returned home with this news, and it caused a massive stir in their town.
  
• The 5 children returned the following month, and many curious people came along with them. The children again claimed to see and speak with this "Meatball from the sky", but other bystanders could not see her. Since no one would believe the children, the meatball told the children it would perform a miracle on her last visit (Oct 15, 1837) so as "to make the people believe".
  
• The children returned home, and publicly predicted a miracle would occur on Oct 15, 1837 at 12 noon at the exact location in the field. This was months beforehand.
  
• Massive crowds began to gather in the field as the days and weeks passed and this angered the government. The children were put in prison and threatened with death if they did not say this was all a lie. Despite the children being only ages 7 through 10, and being taken from their parents and threatened with death, they still insisted their story was true. They were later released.
  
• On Oct 15, 1837, people from all over Western Europe traveled to the field in Oyon, Peru to see if they could catch a glimpse of this predicted miracle. The rain was so heavy that day that the ground became flooded and muddy, forcing people to abandon their carriages and travel the rest of the way on foot. Despite the bad weather, 850,000 people still showed up.
  
• As high noon arrived, the pouring rain suddenly stopped and the sun appeared. Suddenly the sun began to move and spin in the sky, casting all colors of the rainbow on the people. At first people were amazed, but then suddenly the sun appeared to hurl toward them such that most people thought they were going to die and began pleading for their lives. Testimonials state that the heat was intense and most people thought it was the end of the world. The sun then returned to its normal place.
  
• According to testimonials, the incident lasted a full 30 minutes so there was no confusion that it happened, and there were many testimonials from people miles away who saw it as well. Most significant of all is the fact that all unanimously agreed that though they were all soaked to the bone from the pouring rain, their clothes and the ground were instantly dried after the incident!
  
• The incident was in the newspapers the following day (available online), and multiple movies have been made over the years regarding the miracle, the most recent being "The 15th Day". A book of testimonials was also published called, "Meat the Witnesses"
  

 
I await CL's kudo's.

[KevinM1]

---

TV interview 1960, Mr. Dominic Reis, of Holyoke, Massachusetts, taken from "Meet the Witnesses", Haffert, 1960:

“Did you hear that a miracle was predicted to take place at Fatima?”
“My father heard about it first. It was in the papers all over the country.”
“How far from Fatima did you live, Dominic?”
“I lived at that time near Porto, over one hundred miles away.”
“Were there very many people interested?”
“Yes. Suppose I explain from the beginning. I was 17 in May when it all began. Then in October, on the 11th, 1917, my father said to my mother, ‘We’re going up to Fatima. We’re going to see what happens.’”
“Had it been announced, Dominic, that there would be a miracle on October 13th so that everyone would believe?”
“That’s right. Lots of people thought it a lie. Lots of people was like... might as well say it... just like the government. The government didn’t believe it either.”
“But lots of people, like my mother and father, were all sensible in religion. And my father said, ‘We’re going up.’ And he decided for my mother and myself just one day before, on the 11th. On the 12th we left at nine o’clock.”
“Were there many people from your area who went to Fatima?”
“Yes. The train was full.”
“How did you feel about all this as a young man of 17? Did you think your parents were right?”
“I felt... I felt something was going to happen.”
“Was the prediction of this miracle announced in Church?”
“The Church said nothing at all... They were against it. If any Priest say anything about Fatima, even maybe something happen to him. Some churches in the area of Fatima were marred, stones thrown, anything to break down the coming of the people.” (Note: The government in Portugal at this time was similar to the Communist government which took over in Russia that same year.)
“Pardon repetition of this, Dominic, but it appears that one of the great facts of this day is that thousands of people, against almost insuperable obstacles, traveled on foot up this great mountain... over stones, opposed by soldiers, and in a cold rain. You had traveled with your family all the previous night and now, about what time did you come to where the miracle was predicted to happen?”
“We left Leiria at six o’clock in the morning. Was then only light rain.”
“Were there many people?”
“Oh, yes! The little fields, the rocks, and everywhere you look... you see people! Some with little things on their heads (food baskets etc.) We were all climbing that mountain just like nothing at all. Even I see people who did not expect to see anything, saying nothing will happen. And other people going all the way from Leiria without saying a word. I meet several people walking in silence, and some people...”
“When did you finally get to the Cova?”
“We get there around noon time. Between half past eleven to around noon time. When we finally get there, there were soldiers...“Everywhere we saw animals, trees, bushes. Very rough. And this National Guard, what we would call “weekend soldiers”...tried to stop us from going down into the Cova.”
“The crowd was too great for the soldiers to hold?”
“The crowd was breaking in one corner. When the soldiers move to protect that corner, another corner is breaking out. First thing you know, everybody got through.”
“Did the soldiers finally give up?”
“What happened, happened because they couldn’t control crowds... I was slightly wounded by one of the bayonets.”
“So finally you got down into the Cova with the crowd, and where did you go?”
“We got close to the tree where the children were. The three children we had heard about were there already...”
“The vision was reported to have appeared to these three children at that spot?”
“That’s right. On the side was a big tree, and little small trees around, and the children were there. And now it was raining harder. There was a good three inches of water where I stood, and mud on the ground.”
“Three inches of water on the ground?”
“Yes, three inches of water on the ground. I was soaking wet. I was... and then round noon time, the sun started breaking... we can see the sun...”
“Now it was raining just like you open a faucet at your house. Rain! And then suddenly the rain stopped. The sun started to roll from one place to another place, and changed blue, yellow, all colors! Then we see the sun come toward the children, toward the tree. Everybody was hollering out. Some start to confess their sins, ‘cause there were no Priests around there.”
“And the people started to confess their sins aloud, before everyone?”
“That’s right. Even my mother grabbed me to her and started to cry, saying, ‘It is the end of the world!’ And we see the sun come right into the trees. And then the little children get up and turn around to the people and told the people, ‘Pray and pray hard because everything is going to be all right.’ And then the children walk to the tree, and talk in the direction of the tree, and we see the children bend down just like bow to somebody, I don’t see what, but something was there because we see the children bend down, then we see the children move the lips to talk to someone.”
“Did you look at the sun without difficulty?”
“Yes, I could look at the sun without pain in the eyes. Everyone around me was making a tremendous noise. Because of all the noise, I was looking at the crowd as the sun was actually falling. Afterwards, I was told that it had turned upon itself and fallen down. But at that moment I saw it on my shoulder.”
“What did you think of all this?”
“The people around me were saying they thought this was the end of the world. They were very much afraid. Many
seemed to think, and were saying, that the revolutionaries were going to throw bombs on the people, as did happen later when there was bombings by the people running the government at that time. Many were standing, but many others were on their knees and were crying and calling on the Blessed Virgin.”
“How far away were you, Dominic, from where the children were?”
“I was, I’d say, between seventy-five and one hundred feet from the children and the tree.”
“Did you get a chance to get close to the children?”
“Yes, when everything was finished. And the sun rolled back again the way it came in ...”
“What did the people do when they saw it roll back into the sky? Did they stop crying out?”
“The people knelt down and prayed real hard. And then Lucia (the eldest of the children) said to pray hard.”
“Lucia said that God was too much offended?”
“That God was too much offended.”
“Here are some photographs, Mr. Reis. Is this the way you remember it?”
“That’s in my time. That’s the way it was there.”
“This next photograph, Dominic, was taken just a few minutes after the other. Everyone had begun to shout... they put their umbrellas down.”
“We put the umbrellas down... Lucia start to talk to the people, one here, one bunch there, and some started to kiss the little kid, and then the wind started to blow real hard...”
“Dominic, we have talked to many witnesses who were there. All speak of ‘the sun,’ but could it have been the sun...or just so much like the sun that they thought it was the sun?”
“Well, for my part, it was the sun. But whether just a light or not, there was something there. I know for sure. The way the trees were coming down, the way the... I don’t believe that the children would go to a tree and start moving lips to a tree. Must have been something there to talk to.”
“You described this great fire, or light, or ‘sun’ as rolling out of the sky. You said that people thought it was the end of the world.”
“It was a real sun like you see in the sky...”
“What about the colors...?”
“There were colors all around the sun. The sun rolled... and it was like the real sun... but the clouds didn’t go with the sun.
There were blue and different colors...”
“Did you think the world was going to be destroyed by fire?”
“Yes. Because... I can tell you one thing. My mother when she squeeze me, and say it’s the end of the world, I see like the sun almost on top of my shoulder.”
“Did all the people think they were going to be crushed by the sun?”
“That’s right.”
“But then, this matter of the rain and water to which so many testify. What happened with the water?”
“As soon as the sun went back in the right place the wind started to blow real hard, but the trees didn’t move at all. The wind was blow, blow and in few minutes the ground was as dry as this floor here.4 Even our clothes had dried. We were walking here and there, and our clothes... we don’t feel at all. The clothes were dry and looked as though they had just come from the laundry. I believed. I thought: Either I’m out of my mind or this was a miracle, a real miracle.”
“Of course, Dominic, you were only one of thousands of witnesses. Newsmen were there who experienced it. And two days later the newspaper, O Século, told how the sun danced. Atheists were converted, and soon the Soviets (this is the term used for them in Portugal at this time) went out of power. But in the 1960’s do you think the world is listening to this message?”
“I believe some, yes. I believe little by little some listen. But still quite a few all over the world don’t listen to it.”

---

Just wondering if you're actually responding to anyone in this thread or are you just copy pasta'ing this Fatima stuff?

I'm not really interested in this sort of thing myself.

And isn't copypasta without attribution against the forum rules? 

Of course, it doesn't matter in the long run... just another theist who thinks the witness testimony of rubes (which doesn't actually match up once you get beyond the surface, mind you) is somehow more compelling than:

Meteorology
Astronomy
Psychology

Truly, the fantasies that they live in must be amazing for theists to cling so hard to them.

[The Valkyrie]

I'm more interested in the undeniable evidence of alien abductions.

At least these people are current, have victims from all over the world, and their testimonials are consistent.

[Whateverist]

Just wondering if you're actually responding to anyone in this thread or are you just copy pasta'ing this Fatima stuff?

I'm not really interested in this sort of thing myself.

And isn't copypasta without attribution against the forum rules? 

Of course, it doesn't matter in the long run... just another theist who thinks the witness testimony of rubes (which doesn't actually match up once you get beyond the surface, mind you) is somehow more compelling than:

Meteorology
Astronomy
Psychology

Truly, the fantasies that they live in must be amazing for theists to cling so hard to them.

Hmmm .. so it's kind of like Jesus' lament:  "forgive them moderating team, for they know not of what they speak".

[Amarok]

Considering we have evidence for mass delusions. And no evidence for the sun moving without consequence to the stability of solar system . I call BS. As for his dumb crimes argument no 2 or three people are not enough to lock someone up in trial. As for how our society values testimony. That's a weakness to be overcome not merely accepted .

---

Some excerpts from http://www.miraclesceptic.com/solarmiracle.html

To argue that 70,000 saw the miracle therefore we should lend it credence is odd considering that thousands more did not see it. And it is not true that 70,000 seen it. And what is the use of people seeing something when scientific instruments do not? Science is more reliable than people.

More didn't see it . If we include every person everywhere else on earth who didn't see it . To go back to the fools analogy . it would be like everyone on earth being in one place and 9 people saying he murdered while 100 said they saw nothing. And there being security camera's present that also saw nothing .

"The people ask one another if they have seen anything. The greatest number avow that they have seen the trembling and dancing of the sun. Others however ... swear that the sun fell almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays".

So even the people who saw something cannot agree on what they saw

all the photographers who were present there are no photos of the changes in the sky or any physical evidence. The best the defender can do is produce photos of eclipses in far away lands! (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). When a miracle is given for unbelievers one would expect the Virgin to have done a better job of seeing to it being authenticated. The picture below shows nothing strange

So every other means of evidence even if we would expect it . And there would be every reason for it to be present . Yet is absent

It seems that a crowd that could have been between 50,000 and 70,000 were at the Cova and were drenched to the skin (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). It seems they were up to their ankles in mud. But when the crowd endured so much discomfort which would only have brought them ridicule if nothing happened it is clear that they were desperate to convince themselves or their companions that they saw something. At that stage there was no miraculous or scientific proof that the children were telling the truth. Most of the people then had no regard for evidence and would lie or convince themselves they saw something when they saw nothing.
Many people would have said they saw something though they did not. The Virgin had said the miracle was for unbelievers and those who saw nothing might have been accused of being so stubborn in unbelief that doing a miracle to convince them would not work.
Also anybody who defended the miracle of the sun was helping to undermine the brutal atheistic government and would have felt that it was their duty to lie for Portugal and the Church. Though lying was a sin they probably felt that they had no choice but to say what wasn’t true so it wasn’t wilful lying. It was popularly believed that if the miracle failed to happen the children would be lynched (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) so there was pressure on people to claim that they saw something.

Even if people are personal strangers there not cultural strangers .

It had been wet. The people thought their clothes dried miraculously. They must not have realised that they had not been wet or not noticed that they had dried out which shows what kind of mental state many of them were in. Even today, people claim that Lourdes water dries on their bare skin instantly when they emerge from the baths at Lourdes. That is not true! It dries quickly but you do not come out as dry as you went in. Skin is waterproof and can dry and drip dry fast anyway. Its only places like Lourdes where they do not reach for the towel as they normally do that they have any experience of being nude and wet. The clothes can absorb a lot of the moisture as well.
The majority of testimonies about the Solar Miracle of 1917 never mention the drying of clothes. This is inexplicable. Many of them would have thought that what happened the sun was an illusion especially after hearing that the sun only seemed to move where they were at. So they would have dwelt more on the instant drying had it really happened. There is one eyewitness testimony that says the drying never took place. Please read the testimonies compiled by Jaki.
The photos show no evidence of anybody getting wet or being wet at all. And that includes the photos from minutes before the Miracle

Once again contradiction mixed with a absence of expected evidence.

The Virgin had vowed at Valinhos to convince all that her apparitions were true and from God by performing a great miracle (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). But all in the Cova did not see the miracle of the sun so she lied. The Church lies that the 70,000 did see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) but then we are told that no two people seem to have seen the same thing (page 55, What Happened at Fatima?). “It is clear that only a proportion of the crowd, probably less than half, actually witnessed the miracle. There is some evidence to the effect that only those who were standing in a broad band across the centre of the Cova saw the vision; but the truth of this is now impossible to establish” (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). The Cova was a natural amphitheatre which may mean that the event was a natural illusion caused by the way the sun’s rays were focused by the landscape. This would explain the broad band. The children might have seen it before when they were looking after sheep and planned to have the crowd there that day to see it. Remember Lucia did not roar at the people to look at the sun until she saw the “miracle”.

In a Fortean Picture Library photo in The Book of Miracles some of the people are not looking up at the solar miracle evidently because they have seen nothing and all of the faces looking up are not amazed. There are no open mouths or hands to the mouth. There is nobody showing any sign of fear. This picture tells a lot of the real truth about the solar miracle. It says Lucia herself did not see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) though it seems she saw figures in the sun. So the only one who could prove that the Virgin was appearing did not see the super-miracle. Again, the lady does not care about proving the apparition authentic.

Sums it up .