This Has to Stop

[Amarok]

Not sure were your going with that .I Clearly said i wanted religion to fade away because it's simple wrong . But i clearly contrast that with religious people.

Not having a go ... just adding to it!  

Oh Okay 

[LadyForCamus]

My 3 year-old absolutely LOVES Veggie Tales. *face palm*

In his defense though, it is one of the cuter kid's shows out there; they just ruin it with all the Bible quoting...😒 Eh, he's three. He enjoys talking vegetables. I leave it alone for now.

[Succubus]

I just kudos Losty for kudos sake.  Can't say I've read a post of hers in a couple of years.

I wanted to say you were rood, but I just love the kudos too much to be offended xD

Here's one then. For fuck sake.

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I would rather have creationists teaching their kids bullshit than a world full of fascist thought police. If you can't win an argument by persuasion you need to beef up your persuasion skills or get out of the game.

False dilemma?

[Catholic_Lady]

.....
So you're goddamn right, I think you're better off dead than able to poison the mind of even a single child.
....
Don't give me this bullshit about sanctity of life, free will, or any of it. You contradict yourselves at every turn with how you treat your children in this way. Fuck off. And look both ways before you cross the street.

Well, threats of physical violence on the forum are always fun.

[Astonished]

Someone posts saying they hate religious people and would rather see us get killed than teach our own kids about our faith, and 2 others kudos this??

You're not teaching them about religion though are you. You're forcing them into belief before they are old enough to understand the ridiculosness and falsity of the belief.

Children get indoctrinated that young (with lies and evasions, not just in the bible belt, I've seen the catholic church's curriculum in Ireland it teaches stuff only slightly less ridiculos than creatardism) because its the only chance the religions have for their bullshit to stick. Luckily in the modern day it's not sticking so well.

That's the crux of the problem. And parents in that mindset are conditioned not to think of things in that way. Just like they are conditioned not to think about Noah's ark as an unforgivable genocide that no loving deity could possibly contemplate, let alone carry out, they don't look at stripping away the cognitive aspects of their children as a bad thing. Even if you're really fair-weather about it, that's still massively disingenuous and unfair to the children who have to grow up in that kind of environment. Whether the parents actively do it themselves or just passively hand them off to sinister church leaders to do it, that's still doing nothing to protect them from it. And they want not to be thought of as child-hungry predators. Just because they're drooling over their brains instead of anuses, makes no goddamn difference. So when I say I'd rather watch and unfortunate accident befall a brainwashing agent as much as a pedophile, it's not hyperbole. They're committing the same offense, just in different ways.

I would rather have creationists teaching their kids bullshit than a world full of fascist thought police. If you can't win an argument by persuasion you need to beef up your persuasion skills or get out of the game.

False dilemma?

For real, right? "Is there any way you can prove anything you're teaching your kids is factually accurate? No? Erm, well, then...why?" "Oh, your child says they're never going to change their mind even though I can demonstrate with a simple experiment that their belief about this thing is inaccurate? Why is that? Oh, you told them they'd burn in lava forever after they die if they don't believe what you said? That doesn't seem like a good parenting tactic." How the fucking fuck could being opposed to something factually, objectively, demonstrably harmful be construed as a bad thing? But then religion is always opposed to freedom of choice, so of course they don't want their children to have the freedom to make up their own minds.

On the original post, wishing death instead of brainwashing on people is pretty messed up.

That being said, I agree that Ken Hamm's kids books, and Creationists views in general, are pretty sick and messed up.

Obey God or die really is their entire central message. And even the kindest versions of Christianity are more like love God or suffer eternally. Very messed up.

I don't see how you can think wishing death on someone who wishes death on children in that way is messed up. With all the pro-life hullabaloo, people seem to think the life of a blastocyst is more valuable than that of the mother, so what's the difference?

What's wrong with Dinosaur Train, I want to know?  GC and CL both seem to think it teaches something silly.  I love that show!

What? I dont even know what the dinosaur train is lol.

Me neither. But Gullible Cretin is always making shit up so I thought it might have been something he pulled out of his arse. If memory serves, you said you believe in evolution and other sciences, so I get that you're not going to be teaching children to deny such things even if they flatly contradict what you're going to be teaching them about your faith. So the question is, when push comes to shove and you are faced with a child asking you, so, which of the two is true, the bible stories or what we've discovered about reality through science, are you going to be honest and say that you don't actually know that what you believe is the truth but you believe it anyway and that they should make up their own mind? Are you not going to suggest that the rational approach is to follow the evidence and not a presupposed conclusion? Because unfortunately you'd be the only one in a position to decide whether that child is ultimately told WHAT to think or HOW to think. That's a very powerful position to hold. I know that if I was a slave owner, I'd be much better choosing the former. If I was raising a child I love and would die for, well, that approach might appear rather counter-intuitive to being humanitarian.

[Catholic_Lady]

Sooooo taking your kid to church and teaching them about belief in Jesus and God is wishing death upon them? Wow, sounds like my parents really hated me.

[Harry Nevis]

He did say he didn't want you to get run over by a bus.  What more do you want?

Seem's you quit reading at the word bus, he is as hateful toward us as anyone can be and I take him serious.

GC

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So...look, I hate religious folk, that's no secret, and it's not that I want them to get run over by a bus, but...I'd rather see that than see them indoctrinate one more child. The bible is already obscene enough as it is and anyone reading it straight to a child should be institutionalized, but to actually try (and fail) to turn it into a presentable children's book is...is there a word for worse than obscene?

Yet you would applaud the "Dinosaur Train," that program targets the most vulnerable children and does it by the masses. That show claims things to be true that adults would never accept.

GC

And what are these things that DT says are true?

[Astonished]

Sooooo tsking your kid to church and teaching them about belief in Jesus and God is wishing death upon them? Wow, sounds like my parents really hated me.

Your continued false equivocation and ignoring my explanations does not make you look like you have the high ground, snookums. I didn't say I wished death upon the ones who force children who HATE sitting through religious services to do, I said those parents were ASSHOLES if they mistreated their kids like that and completely disregarded their feelings in that way. The ones who put them through cult-like shaming, fear and science-denying propaganda so that their minds are warped into the equivalent of thinking that 2 and 2 make 5, the gene pool would be better off without. Or are you saying the flock of Fred Phelps are upstanding human beings who are far better off because of what happened during their upbringing? You don't get to have it both ways.

Or what about the Amish? Beliefs they teach aside, they intentionally strip away access to modernism in virtually every way. Technology, education, everything that makes life worth living nowadays, completely cut off and isolated. In what way is that giving a child freedom of choice in any true sense? You either care about their rights or you don't. If merely institutionalizing people who force that upon them is a viable solution, I'm all for it if nature won't take care of it. The point is, like the title of the thread says, THIS HAS TO STOP. Whatever mechanism stops it will generally be preferable to the alternative. Too bad there's no karma or a just, loving god who would put things right. Kind of amazing anyone believes in something so impotent.

[Harry Nevis]

@CL- I wouldn't be too offended about the kudos. You never know why a person might give kudos. It doesn't mean they agree with everything said in the post.

Meh, I wouldn't give any credit to a post where someone says they hate an entire group of people and would rather see them die than teach their kids their faith, even if he said something later on that I agreed with. He would have lost me long before then. But, thats just me i guess...

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One is synonymous with brainwashing. I thought that was a commonly understood facet of indoctrination. This ignorance on your part is what alarms me so greatly about even moderation in this topic.

And you aren't one of the two I was referring to that had put me on ignore, I was referring to Neo-Craptastic and Gullible Cretin. I extended them the same middle finger and on the rare occasion I see the content of their posts because someone quoted them, I'm never disappointed that they're as vapid and proving our points as always.

Can you be more specific about what you would consider "brainwashing" vs just teaching your kid about your faith?

That it's true?  That it is supported by facts? That the bible is the word of god?  That we know god exists? ad infinitum.

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Are you fucking kidding me? I'm not a dictionary, go look it up, but I should have thought, and hoped, that it's fairly fucking self-explanatory. I don't need to constantly be given more reasons to see you as a robot with severe bugs in your programming. Your intellectual laziness is your lookout, until it starts to affect others, which is what pisses me off. When a condition like that is contagious only because of what you're not prevented from doing to others, that's a problem for the whole human race.

But I'll humor you, one last time. In my view, which I would assume is fairly commonplace among rational skeptics, indoctrination involves the systematic censoring of anything that contradicts a biblical worldview, propaganda-like tactics to prevent victims from ever questioning their limited teachings, denying without reason facts that are demonstrable no matter how solidly presented or explained, never permitted to accept anything that does not fit in with a worldview they are not free to develop on their own in the first place, threatened with force or implied threats to encourage a fearful coercion so as to stifle independent thought or questioning of whatever it is they're being taught (including threats of financial support being cut off or outright social ostracism), teaching them WHAT to think and never how to think, being taught to mistrust and/or never listen at all to anyone who disagrees, being taught to believe in things that are flatly contradicted by basic knowledge of reality and to require little to no evidence for that which they are taught...

That good enough? I bet you barely fit 10% of that description yourself, which I think we can both agree is a good thing. You're not the kind of Ham sandwich I'm worried about.

I googled the definition of indoctrination, and the results varied slightly. Some where simply "to teach a specific ideology or world view" others were more along the lines of "teaching to accept uncritically". Nothing nearly as specific as the paragraph you wrote above.

Also, you're a really nasty person.

And you seem willfully ignorant.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well then you should clarify that on your OP. Because what youre describing above is quite a bit more than simply indoctrinating. As much as you hate GC and Neo I highly doubt either of them would put any hypothetical child of theirs through cult like shaming, fear, etc.