This Has to Stop

[Amarok]

Except people are not eggs

Whatever dude. When I first came to this site I got torn to pieces by anti-theists, and that was an atheist; they just thought I was making religious arguments when I was just playing devil's advocate. But those people that tore me apart, I've now come to respect for doing that very thing. You need a thick skin on this site, and that helped develop whatever semblance I have of one.

Just because you learned to respect something does not mean it was the right way or a thing to be respected.

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She repeatedly equated my rant against those who willfully brainwash a child in the most cynical of ways with the more passive teaching of it (the latter being the sort I was raised with, and was easily able to extricate myself from, hence my less stringent opinion on that). I corrected her on this at least twice and was ignored on both counts because, I guess, she just wanted to be mad about something. Not exactly her taking a high road here. She pretty much gave me no reason to hold back so I dived in. And like I said, most people on here were making the same point as me but just not being assholes about it. Hell, they even brought up a side of it I wasn't even willing to go to; teaching it as a fairy tail in the same sense as Jack and the Beanstalk seemed innocuous enough to me but apparently even that's a slippery slope. I didn't exactly believe anyone would really be able to present religion to their kids in that sort of way but in theory I figured if done that way, they'd be as critical of it at a young age as I was. Apparently it's more complicated than that either way.

You and i must be reading two different threads . Because in mine you been chewed out and the kudos persistently favored CL . And she has not ignored you position it''s you who seems incapable of articulating your position in a that isn't confusing .

[Catholic_Lady]

Wether you said you weren't or not is of no concern to me . And no your rhetoric is massively disproportionate to anything CL has said on this thread. Sorry that excuse won't help you .

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Except people are not eggs

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An event I have yet to observer and i'm far from the only one. I however see you hurling abuse .If you don't believe me look at the kudos

I'm not making excuses, I'm explaining why I'm doing it and will continue to do so. Excuses are for when you're sorry. I'm not.

She repeatedly equated my rant against those who willfully brainwash a child in the most cynical of ways with the more passive teaching of it (the latter being the sort I was raised with, and was easily able to extricate myself from, hence my less stringent opinion on that). I corrected her on this at least twice and was ignored on both counts because, I guess, she just wanted to be mad about something. Not exactly her taking a high road here. She pretty much gave me no reason to hold back so I dived in. And like I said, most people on here were making the same point as me but just not being assholes about it. Hell, they even brought up a side of it I wasn't even willing to go to; teaching it as a fairy tail in the same sense as Jack and the Beanstalk seemed innocuous enough to me but apparently even that's a slippery slope. I didn't exactly believe anyone would really be able to present religion to their kids in that sort of way but in theory I figured if done that way, they'd be as critical of it at a young age as I was. Apparently it's more complicated than that either way.

emjay, I get the sentiment behind attacking someone playing devil's advocate, I honestly could not adopt that position because there is literally nothing about religion I find possible to defend even in a hypothetical situation. I normally do my best writing when I approach it from the opposing side of that which I hold when writing essays because it forces me to work harder and do more research and see more perspectives. But this is just not one of those issues, and I've actually found it quite cathartic when I can submit a paper denigrating religion in an academic environment, although so far I've only had one opportunity to do so. I've heard all the arguments, seen every perspective, and it's all shit.

After explaining to you what i meant about conveying my beliefs to my children, you still went on to accuse me of child abuse, accuse my mom and dad of child abuse and called them assholes, and called me a hypocrite, lying, cunt. You also clearly stated you hate all theists.

I can quote those if you want. Now, after not getting much support from your hateful, bigoted views, you're trying to back track.

[Astonished]

I'm not making excuses, I'm explaining why I'm doing it and will continue to do so. Excuses are for when you're sorry. I'm not.

She repeatedly equated my rant against those who willfully brainwash a child in the most cynical of ways with the more passive teaching of it (the latter being the sort I was raised with, and was easily able to extricate myself from, hence my less stringent opinion on that). I corrected her on this at least twice and was ignored on both counts because, I guess, she just wanted to be mad about something. Not exactly her taking a high road here. She pretty much gave me no reason to hold back so I dived in. And like I said, most people on here were making the same point as me but just not being assholes about it. Hell, they even brought up a side of it I wasn't even willing to go to; teaching it as a fairy tail in the same sense as Jack and the Beanstalk seemed innocuous enough to me but apparently even that's a slippery slope. I didn't exactly believe anyone would really be able to present religion to their kids in that sort of way but in theory I figured if done that way, they'd be as critical of it at a young age as I was. Apparently it's more complicated than that either way.

emjay, I get the sentiment behind attacking someone playing devil's advocate, I honestly could not adopt that position because there is literally nothing about religion I find possible to defend even in a hypothetical situation. I normally do my best writing when I approach it from the opposing side of that which I hold when writing essays because it forces me to work harder and do more research and see more perspectives. But this is just not one of those issues, and I've actually found it quite cathartic when I can submit a paper denigrating religion in an academic environment, although so far I've only had one opportunity to do so. I've heard all the arguments, seen every perspective, and it's all shit.

After explaining to you what i meant about conveying my beliefs to my children, you still went on to accuse me of child abuse, accuse my mom and dad of child abuse and called them assholes, and called me a hypocrite, lying, cunt. You also clearly stated you hate all theists.

I can quote those if you want. Now, after not getting much support from your hateful, bigoted views, you're trying to back track.

Because all theists are uniformly delusional about at least one thing, and are collectively contributing to the perpetuation of a cancerous ideology; that's where the hate comes from. Even if you're one of the fair-weather ones, you're at least lending support simply in terms of numbers to the corruption and violence at the heart of it (especially if you're not a non-denominational sect, like, say, a member of the church responsible for the systematic rape of little boys who have yet to face any consequences for it). Those arguments ad populum are a good way for someone to bolster their own beliefs rather than actually take the extra time to question and examine them critically. Maybe if y'all were in the minority, things would look different and it wouldn't be so easy to ignore what's right in front of you.

Your beliefs being as unshakeable as they are in the face of everything IS a result of indoctrination, although it's probably of the more passive variety that I had previously thought was a more harmless type, ergo your parents did indoctrinate you whether they intended to or not (and given your inability to recognize this, even 'teaching' it to your kids is likely to have the same effect, upon reflection). A zombie bite is still from a zombie, so make of that what you will about the people who sowed those seeds in your mind. So there's not exactly much hope for you not continuing the cycle of brainwashing when you won't acknowledge the effect we're all pointing out. Even with the best of intentions, the results speak for themselves. I actually learned something from this thread, that even as hard-assed as I am about this subject, I wasn't being hard enough on it about even the passive introduction of religious teachings.

Here's the thing, though; I was able to break out of the passive teaching method easily enough. So, I would guess, was my mom, but my grandma and uncle were fanatical about faith and I'm fortunate they didn't have as much time around me as that or it might have been more problematic. But at least there's a better chance someone with a precocious predisposition will end up being more critical of or outright rejecting faith when presented with it in a more passive form, so in those instances, I can be fine with pointing and laughing at a parent who fails to instill that in their child, whereas someone like Ken Ham, (and this is where the hyperbole comes, just so we're clear) I'd give anything for five minutes alone with him and a bag of rusty razor blades.

[Catholic_Lady]

You're kind of all over the place. First you describe indoctrination as being different from teaching, and you give this super long, super extreme explanation of your personal definition of indoctrination, which im sure every normal person would agree IS abuse. But then you accuse others of indoctrinating when they did nothing near anything you describe as falling under "indoctrination", including me, my mom and dad, and others in this thread. And you say indoctrination is child abuse and people who do it should die. But you keep going back and forth on what you *mean* by indoctrination.

My guess is you have deep seated hate for people of faith and are trying to find ways of making that hate justifiable and acceptable to the good members here.

You also keep bringing up physical violence against people... as you did in the OP (which you reiterated several times theoughout the thread), and then again to GC and Neo in one of the earlier posts, and then again in the post above.

To say you have a chip on your shoulder is an understatement. I think youre a very disturbed person.

[emjay]

emjay, I get the sentiment behind attacking someone playing devil's advocate, I honestly could not adopt that position because there is literally nothing about religion I find possible to defend even in a hypothetical situation. I normally do my best writing when I approach it from the opposing side of that which I hold when writing essays because it forces me to work harder and do more research and see more perspectives. But this is just not one of those issues, and I've actually found it quite cathartic when I can submit a paper denigrating religion in an academic environment, although so far I've only had one opportunity to do so. I've heard all the arguments, seen every perspective, and it's all shit.

I play Devil's Advocate a lot, less so now, because despite being an atheist I still have Christian doubts all the time. But the point is I shouldn't do because those doubts come from a place that was instilled in me from my upbringing rather than any neutral and uninfluenced belief in Jesus. As an adult I've yet to see a convincing positive case for Christianity... nothing that would make me lean towards it from a neutral perspective... yet I still have it installed as the default position that has to be disproved all the time. How do you fight beliefs slipped in through the back door... beliefs so deep that they cannot be fought rationally because they were not acquired rationally? Beliefs that have no logical business being there, because they could not convince me now, but nonetheless are there by default because of my upbringing. That's what I see as the danger from all this.

And Neo touches on the same issue but from the Christian side; seeming to fear... and call it 'pure evil'... if the bias works the other way... with a default atheist position/bias instilled through upbringing that likewise creates an adult default position that always has to be disproved and therefore creates a bias that has to be overcome before becoming a Christian. It's the same issue but from two different worldviews. As Jorm says, there's not much that can be done about it... the parent's culture will get transmitted to the child, and practically there's little that could be done to prevent that; if the whole family/social life revolves around it, then to exclude the child from it would bring its own problems. But nonetheless, a start would be... and to be ecumenical here... for all activism... whether theist or atheist to be kept from the child as much as possible; to give the child the greatest possible chance of growing up without bias in any direction, and therefore being able to make truly neutral decisions as an adult, untainted by the parent's worldview.

[LastPoet]

After explaining to you what i meant about conveying my beliefs to my children, you still went on to accuse me of child abuse, accuse my mom and dad of child abuse and called them assholes, and called me a hypocrite, lying, cunt. You also clearly stated you hate all theists.

I can quote those if you want. Now, after not getting much support from your hateful, bigoted views, you're trying to back track.

Because all theists are uniformly delusional about at least one thing, and are collectively contributing to the perpetuation of a cancerous ideology; that's where the hate comes from. Even if you're one of the fair-weather ones, you're at least lending support simply in terms of numbers to the corruption and violence at the heart of it (especially if you're not a non-denominational sect, like, say, a member of the church responsible for the systematic rape of little boys who have yet to face any consequences for it). Those arguments ad populum are a good way for someone to bolster their own beliefs rather than actually take the extra time to question and examine them critically. Maybe if y'all were in the minority, things would look different and it wouldn't be so easy to ignore what's right in front of you.

Your beliefs being as unshakeable as they are in the face of everything IS a result of indoctrination, although it's probably of the more passive variety that I had previously thought was a more harmless type, ergo your parents did indoctrinate you whether they intended to or not (and given your inability to recognize this, even 'teaching' it to your kids is likely to have the same effect, upon reflection). A zombie bite is still from a zombie, so make of that what you will about the people who sowed those seeds in your mind. So there's not exactly much hope for you not continuing the cycle of brainwashing when you won't acknowledge the effect we're all pointing out. Even with the best of intentions, the results speak for themselves. I actually learned something from this thread, that even as hard-assed as I am about this subject, I wasn't being hard enough on it about even the passive introduction of religious teachings.

Here's the thing, though; I was able to break out of the passive teaching method easily enough. So, I would guess, was my mom, but my grandma and uncle were fanatical about faith and I'm fortunate they didn't have as much time around me as that or it might have been more problematic. But at least there's a better chance someone with a precocious predisposition will end up being more critical of or outright rejecting faith when presented with it in a more passive form, so in those instances, I can be fine with pointing and laughing at a parent who fails to instill that in their child, whereas someone like Ken Ham, (and this is where the hyperbole comes, just so we're clear) I'd give anything for five minutes alone with him and a bag of rusty razor blades.

Are you sure you are an atheist?

[emjay]

@CL. I see you've unrepped me... that's fine by me. Anyone else who wants to follow suit over this issue, that's also fine by me.

You know I said I've never seen a convincing positive case for Christianity? Well I see them least of all from theists with your type of views. I don't even think of you as a Christian because your beliefs are so wishy-washy. At least fundamentalists are consistent. Your type of Christianity seems like the make-it-up-as-you-go-along type where any uncomfortable thing in the Bible just becomes 'allegory'. You yourself inspire respect, regardless of how you now feel about me, because you are a kind and decent person... but I can't say the same thing at all about your beliefs. I never called you willfully abusive, just as I don't call my parents abusive, but nonetheless I would hope that you, and they, would understand what results from instilling a bias in someone through upbringing. And just because your beliefs are Bible Pick 'n' Mix, doesn't mean that they wouldn't also have an effect on adult bias... and frankly I don't know which would be worse. My own parents fall more into the literalist camp... I never even heard the word 'allegory' in my upbringing... but at least with that there's something consistent to address. With your type of view, that basically says 'You can believe in god but you don't have to believe in anything in the Bible, unless you want to' there isn't even something consistent to address, which I would think would be even harder to undo as an adult.

[JamieBra]

Meh.  Parents pass on their beliefs to their children under conditions in which it is unlikely for the child to doubt.  If you want to call that indoctrination, then yes, I believe parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into their religious beliefs.  Somewhere along the line you have to make the case that having religious beliefs is an evil unto itself in order to make the case that transmitting their religious beliefs in this manner is immoral.  Parents "indoctrinate" their children into a lot of beliefs.  I don't think it makes sense to interfere with the process by which we transmit our culture to our children.  What are you suggesting?  Criminal penalties if "teaching" passes over into "indoctrination"?  I don't personally believe that the way a family transmits its culture to its children can be characterized that simply.  Children are taught the concepts of religion.  That's more than half the battle toward getting them to believe.  Is that indoctrination?  I don't think so.

Oh Lordy
I watched this whole video and was inspired by her analysis of what many christians and some kids would take as new knowledge. I was extremely indoctrinated as a child. Believe this because God says so! And hell and shit... Well that didn't work for me. As a young adult I made decisions based on the good in god and the sinner in me (eventually found out he's a maniacal killer, not me) Doh! 
By believing I was the all sinful one and the  only good in me was from God I had a hard time trusting myself and my morals as an atheist.  Am I gonna be this POS person without God? Nope... I still love and care about people. I find more beauty in this earth knowing I'm not just waiting around for a heavenly life. Time is more precious and mostly I'm not stunted by believing I know this to be true. Now, I can't decide on my own and change my opinion if convinced otherwise. 
The biggest issue with giving children these bible based interpretations as fact is that they lose the ablity to evolve and grow. My daughter came home from church with my folks saying Jesus died for her sins and continued to share the gory details of the sacrifice he made for my shy sweetheart of a girl. I said "Baby did you Kill Jesus!"
She looked at me confused and said "No". "Then you don't feel guilty for that.. Yada yada Yada... " ( don't wanna say too much cause my parenting is already open for judgment here). Her face turned from sadness and stress to relief, happy girl. Some of us put remarkable amounts of guilt on ourselves and for no other reason than the lies we were taught as kids. Im fine with her going to church at times with my born-agin family, because she has the power to think things through and decide for herself.
I love this girl in the video and hope my kiddos follow in her example and think about/question what they are being told as fact. Isn't that how we evolve?

[Catholic_Lady]

@CL. I see you've unrepped me... that's fine by me. Anyone else who wants to follow suit over this issue, that's also fine by me.

You know I said I've never seen a convincing positive case for Christianity? Well I see them least of all from theists with your type of views. I don't even think of you as a Christian because your beliefs are so wishy-washy. At least fundamentalists are consistent. Your type of Christianity seems like the make-it-up-as-you-go-along type where any uncomfortable thing in the Bible just becomes 'allegory'. You yourself inspire respect, regardless of how you now feel about me, because you are a kind and decent person... but I can't say the same thing at all about your beliefs. I never called you willfully abusive, just as I don't call my parents abusive, but nonetheless I would hope that you, and they, would understand what results from instilling a bias in someone through upbringing. And just because your beliefs are Bible Pick 'n' Mix, doesn't mean that they wouldn't also have an effect on adult bias... and frankly I don't know which would be worse. My own parents fall more into the literalist camp... I never even heard the word 'allegory' in my upbringing... but at least with that there's something consistent to address. With your type of view, that basically says 'You can believe in god but you don't have to believe in anything in the Bible, unless you want to' there isn't even something consistent to address, which I would think would be even harder to undo as an adult.

Let it be known that it never bothered me and still doesn't bother me that you are atheist and that you don't like/agree with Christianity. What upset me on a personal level is that we started off as friends on these forums. We sent each other nice PMs, we had long conversations on skype, played mafia together, and we even video chatted a number of times. You were someone I considered a "forum friend", and I liked you. So to see you giving support to the sentiment that I'm a would be child abuser, and all the other horrible things this person said to me and about my parents, really caught me off guard and gave off the vibe that you don't feel the same way about me anymore. I admit the unrep was childish, but I guess it was my way of saying, "ok, I guess we aren't on the terms I thought we were."

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Also, I don't make up my own religion. I'm catholic. And if there is anything in catholic teaching you think I cherry pick or am wishy washy about, then please be the first to point it out by copying and pasting from church document exactly what I am going against.

[emjay]

@CL. I see you've unrepped me... that's fine by me. Anyone else who wants to follow suit over this issue, that's also fine by me.

You know I said I've never seen a convincing positive case for Christianity? Well I see them least of all from theists with your type of views. I don't even think of you as a Christian because your beliefs are so wishy-washy. At least fundamentalists are consistent. Your type of Christianity seems like the make-it-up-as-you-go-along type where any uncomfortable thing in the Bible just becomes 'allegory'. You yourself inspire respect, regardless of how you now feel about me, because you are a kind and decent person... but I can't say the same thing at all about your beliefs. I never called you willfully abusive, just as I don't call my parents abusive, but nonetheless I would hope that you, and they, would understand what results from instilling a bias in someone through upbringing. And just because your beliefs are Bible Pick 'n' Mix, doesn't mean that they wouldn't also have an effect on adult bias... and frankly I don't know which would be worse. My own parents fall more into the literalist camp... I never even heard the word 'allegory' in my upbringing... but at least with that there's something consistent to address. With your type of view, that basically says 'You can believe in god but you don't have to believe in anything in the Bible, unless you want to' there isn't even something consistent to address, which I would think would be even harder to undo as an adult.

Let it be known that it never bothered me and still doesn't bother me that you are atheist and that you don't like/agree with Christianity. What upset me on a personal level is that we started off as friends on these forums. We sent each other nice PMs, we had long conversations on skype, played mafia together, and we even video chatted a number of times. You were someone I considered a "forum friend", and I liked you. So to see you giving support to the sentiment that I'm a would be child abuser, and all the other horrible things this person said to me and about my parents, really caught me off guard and gave off the vibe that you don't feel the same way about me anymore. I admit the unrep was childish, but I guess it was my way of saying, "ok, I guess we aren't on the terms I thought we were."

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Also, I don't make up my own religion. I'm catholic. And if there is anything in catholic teaching you think I cherry pick or am wishy washy about, then please be the first to point it out by copying and pasting from church document exactly what I am going against.

I wasn't supporting his specific argument against you... just the general argument of this thread. I did not call you an abuser, potential or otherwise, neither did I say the same of my parents. I said that I knew they meant no harm in teaching me about Jesus as I grew up, and the same would be true of you. But regardless of the intentions behind it, the effect on the resulting adult is the same; bias that results from upbringing... bias that acts as a default position moving forward... a default position of emotional bias that has to be constantly fought, that does not stand and cannot be fought on it's own rational merits because it was never acquired rationally in the first place.

As for you making up your own religion, that was just a turn of phrase really... and whether it's you or the whole Catholic church doing it doesn't really matter. What I mean is as soon as any religion starts introducing the notion of 'allegory' it's a slippery slope... where does it end? If the Bible is just true or false, that's at least something consistent to argue against, but if it's just a bit true, then there's nothing consistent to argue with and the goalposts can constantly be shifted.