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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:49 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:47 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: God could easily provide evidence for his existence, in fact god is supposed to know exactly what would convince me. God simply does not do so. Why not?
The usual christian claim is that god does not want to force me to worship him, he wants me to choose to worship him.
Unfortunately for god, that is not how it works. Suppose that god actually turned up and demonstrated that he did in fact exist. What then? Well, I would accept that he existed. Worship him? Not even remotely.
The last part renders the part on evidence of existence irrelevant. And that's actually correct - as James notes, the demons believe in the existence of God, and shudder.
No, it doesn't.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:50 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: "Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good.
Why do you characterize the relationship between God and sinners as analogous to a parent and their children?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:52 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:50 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: "Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good.
Why do you characterize the relationship between God and sinners as analogous to a parent and their children?
Your god does that.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:54 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:52 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:50 pm)alpha male Wrote: Why do you characterize the relationship between God and sinners as analogous to a parent and their children?
Your god does that.
Where?
Jesus specifically tells certain people that their father is the devil.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:54 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:50 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: "Inherently and completely good"? I think most parents would consider eternally torturing (whether its flames or god's absence, if he's all he's cracked up to be, it would be torture) their kids for disobedience not good.
Why do you characterize the relationship between God and sinners as analogous to a parent and their children?
I guess it's all the Father/Son crap in the bible. The bond between parent and child is the closest thing to unconditional love we have. And it appears to outclass your god's love.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:58 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:54 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:50 pm)alpha male Wrote: Why do you characterize the relationship between God and sinners as analogous to a parent and their children?
I guess it's all the Father/Son crap in the bible. The bond between parent and child is the closest thing to unconditional love we have. And it appears to outclass your god's love.
Does the Father/Son stuff in the Bible apply to everyone, or to the saved?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:59 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 2:24 pm)SteveII Wrote: I want to reply to this one point because it illustrates in one sentence that your main objection is founded on bad reasoning. If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Free will entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of everything. Your sentence does not make sense.
Why does free will entail a sinful world? Because god created sin. And, supposedly, he knows what the outcome will be. If he knows I will never become a believer, and knew before I was born, I have no control. No, free will created sin. Sin is the absence of good. Just like no one created darkness.
Foreknowledge in no way means control. The fact that you won't choose differently does not mean you couldn't have. God simply knows what every free creature would choose and would not choose (counterfactuals) to do in any given circumstances. There are different theological perspectives and I am arguing/answering from my own.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 2:59 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 3:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and who created "free will", again, Steve?
"I just -made- the bomb, don't blame me when it goes off!"
-God.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 3:00 pm
Romans 8 & 9, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1 all refer to believers being adopted as children of God. Obviously if they were born children by default, they wouldn't need to be adopted.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 7, 2017 at 3:01 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 3:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-and we're back around to the daddy who picks one to lavish gifts on and throws the other two into a lake of fire. What a solid guy. Just leaving the other two alone wouldn't be good enough. He's gotta make it worse for them somehow, because he's just that selfless.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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