For Rich Fetuses Only, Though

[brewer]

If people choose to be born poor that's on them.  If people choose to be layed off that's on them.  If people choose to work harder for longer hours and lesser pay in necessary jobs for a functioning scivilization, that's on them.

Why should any of these people expect to be able to afford food and shelter?

Born poor, not on them. Stay poor, not sure, I've never really been poor so it's hard to comment. Stay poor given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing. 

Laid off, a grey area depending on circumstance, but lets say not on them. Staying laid off given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing.

Working/contributing to society and not able to obtain food and shelter (other life necessities), not acceptable.

[The Grand Nudger]

Born poor, not on them.

Since you're not one of those flaming douches conservatism has been inundated with......I feel like we might be able to have a productive discussion. 

The crushing majority of welfare recipients are children.  "Born Poor" is the only category that could apply to them at such a basic level as to be inarguable.

Stay poor, not sure, I've never really been poor so it's hard to comment.

You don't have to experience poverty to comment on the nature and demographics thereof.  The majority of the category above, "born poor" will stay poor, despite being members of the final category of hard ass workers doing a necessary job.  This isn't a grey area, it's a known quantity.  

Stay poor given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing. 

What would that include, college grads who, despite educating themselves..fail to find work outside of the service industry?  Did they have opportunity?  

Laid off, a grey area depending on circumstance, but lets say not on them. Staying laid off given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing.

Layoffs don't generally happen in areas with a labor shortage or surplus of opportunity.  How should those who are laid off in depressed areas respond, where and what is the opportunity to discuss?  

Working/contributing to society and not able to obtain food and shelter (other life necessities), not acceptable.

-and yet this is the state that the working poor, the largest demographic in american society, find themselves in and denigrated for. What can we do about this?

[brewer]

Born poor, not on them.

Since you're not one of those flaming douches conservatism has been inundated with......I feel like we might be able to have a productive discussion. 

The crushing majority of welfare recipients are children.  "Born Poor" is the only category that could apply to them at such a basic level as to be inarguable.

Stay poor, not sure, I've never really been poor so it's hard to comment.

You don't have to experience poverty to comment on the nature and demographics thereof.  The majority of the category above, "born poor" will stay poor, despite being members of the final category of hard ass workers doing a necessary job.  This isn't a grey area, it's a known quantity.  

Stay poor given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing. 

What would that include, college grads who, despite educating themselves..fail to find work outside of the service industry?  Did they have opportunity?  

Laid off, a grey area depending on circumstance, but lets say not on them. Staying laid off given the opportunity to change, might be worth discussing.

Layoffs don't generally happen in areas with a labor shortage or surplus of opportunity.  How should those who are laid off in depressed areas respond, where and what is the opportunity to discuss?  

Working/contributing to society and not able to obtain food and shelter (other life necessities), not acceptable.

-and yet this is the state that the working poor, the largest demographic in american society, find themselves in and denigrated for.  What can we do about this?

No issues with born poor child support.

If I don't know crushing poverty personally so I doubt I can comment on what mental state (the despair) that can place a person in, the sense of hopelessness. I have certainly lived poor, for periods of time, by choice while chasing the opportunity of change. I never felt the despair.

What college degrees are we discussing? Art history, 19th century french poetry, everyone can be a computer programmer? If the person chooses a poor educational path considering the job market they squandered their opportunity in my view. This is what I like or want to do does not necessarily guarantee employment.  

Layoffs, grey area is if the person contributed to the lack of success of the company, I seen and lived thru it. In a depressed area, move. In a depressed job field, change. Or don't change and accept the circumstances. 

What can we do? Create more jobs and employment opportunities that have market value. Someone in another thread mentioned the value of a post war economy. What drove that economy, production of items the market values.

Those who denigrate the poor who want change are foolish and misguided.

Edit: Service industry jobs are not all bad, i.e. medical, tech.

[The Grand Nudger]

No issues with born poor child support.

I suspect that most people with half a heart and an ounce of sense would agree with us on that count.  Not everyone..mind you, it's all to common too see the children of takers as little takers who will grow up to be big takers.  Probably has something to due with a lack of upward mobility and opportunity. We have a nasty habit of cutting programs that benefit them to pay for corporate welfare..regardless of whether we have half a heart or an ounce of sense.

If I don't know crushing poverty personally so I doubt I can comment on what mental state (the despair) that can place a person in, the sense of hopelessness. I have certainly lived poor, for periods of time, by choice while chasing the opportunity of change. I never felt the despair.

Despair.....?  Despite, as in, despite working hard..they were born poor, and so they stay poor..regardless whether or not they despair of or for being poor.  That;s just the state of social mobility in today's america.  

What college degrees are we discussing? Art history, 19th century french poetry, everyone can be a computer programmer? If the person chooses a poor educational path considering the job market they squandered their opportunity in my view. This is what I like or want to do does not necessarily guarantee employment.  

Would it matter?  If the garbage collectors can't get a living wage -and- the college grads can't get a living wage...do we not need garbage collection, do we not need art history, do we not need poetry...is there -any- job that a human being does that shouldn't pay a living wage?  If a person can't live doing something, how are we going to get it done?

Layoffs, grey area is if the person contributed to the lack of success of the company, I seen and lived thru it. In a depressed area, move. In a depressed job field, change. Or don't change and accept the circumstances. 

Move....the life of a drifter is the route to financial security and stability?  What are they supposed to do with their assets, their children in school?  This sounds like a cute answer but it's monstrous.  Should the circumstances of the place of your birth or home mean that you can't make a living wage, that you can't afford a home?  It sounds simple when it's someone else, but I don't think anyone has really thought this through in the context of migratory manufacturing.  Wherever you move -to- is just the next place the layoffs happen.  

What can we do? Create more jobs and employment opportunities that have market value. Someone in another thread mentioned the value of a post war economy. What drove that economy, production of items the market values.

"Create more jobs".  I've heard that magical phrase alot, it seems difficult to pull of in practice.  The government can "create jobs" by paying one group of people to dig holes and another to fill them (or, roads and whatnot..take yourt pick). How does that sound?

What drove the post war economy was the sudden return of people with piled up pay and the gi bill, the loss of many american workers in the war, and increasing production efficiency in the form of limited automation....among other things...... like that tiny little detail of the rest of the industrialized world having been recently laid to waste.

Not sure how we're going to replicate that..........I mean, I know we could, but....   

Those who denigrate the poor who want change are foolish and misguided.

Those who denigrate the poor are foolish and misguided, period. They aren't poor for having chosen to be poor. That's not how poverty works, never has been. I doubt that theres ever been a group of people in all of human history that have wanted change and more change...more than the poor. Somehow, though, the poor remain..well....poor. Why do you think that is?

[Court Jester]

I doubt that theres ever been a group of people in all of human history that have wanted change and more change...more than the poor. Somehow, though, the poor remain..well....poor. Why do you think that is?

Reliance on and full acceptance of social welfare systems
A "The man owes me" mentality
Poor life choices
Unwillingness to make the necessary changes in life style, perspective, physical location, and or environment they cling to
Poor education choices
Poor educational availability
Unwillingness to take advantage of the educational opportunities that they do have available
Poor choice in and use of the choices available to them
Drug addiction
Alcohol addiction
Poor work habits
Horrible interviewing skills
Horrible social skill
Horrible hygiene
Would rather hang with their baby mommy than work
Would rather go fishing than work
Would rather go hunting than work
Can't follow directions
Wont follow directions
Can always find a reason not to work
Can't find a managerial job that pays $100,000 at age 18 because he/she wont settle for less
Parents didn't whoop them enough as a kid
Can't function because of an inability to let go of the fact that their parent whooped them way too much as a kid
Can't function because of an inability to let go of the fact that their parents once stood them in the corner for 5 minutes as a kid
Can't work because they don't wont their taxes to support Trump (yes, I fired a lady last February because that was her reason for missing five days of work. 22 years with the company at $28.00 an hour. That can slide under the "parents didn't whoop them enough as a kid".)
I'm tired of typing now. I'll follow up later.

[brewer]

No issues with born poor child support.

I suspect that most people with half a heart and an ounce of sense would agree with us on that count.  Not everyone..mind you, it's all to common too see the children of takers as little takers who will grow up to be big takers.  Probably has something to due with a lack of upward mobility and opportunity.  We have a nasty habit of cutting programs that benefit them to pay for corporate welfare..regardless of whether we have half a heart or an ounce of sense.  

If I don't know crushing poverty personally so I doubt I can comment on what mental state (the despair) that can place a person in, the sense of hopelessness. I have certainly lived poor, for periods of time, by choice while chasing the opportunity of change. I never felt the despair.

Despair.....?  Despite, as in, despite working hard..they were born poor, and so they stay poor..regardless whether or not they despair of or for being poor.  That;s just the state of social mobility in today's america.  

What college degrees are we discussing? Art history, 19th century french poetry, everyone can be a computer programmer? If the person chooses a poor educational path considering the job market they squandered their opportunity in my view. This is what I like or want to do does not necessarily guarantee employment.  

Would it matter?  If the garbage collectors can't get a living wage -and- the college grads can't get a living wage...do we not need garbage collection, do we not need art history, do we not need poetry...is there -any- job that a human being does that shouldn't pay a living wage?  If a person can't live doing something, how are we going to get it done?  

Layoffs, grey area is if the person contributed to the lack of success of the company, I seen and lived thru it. In a depressed area, move. In a depressed job field, change. Or don't change and accept the circumstances. 

Move....the life of a drifter is the route to financial security and stability?  What are they supposed to do with their assets, their children in school?  This sounds like a cute answer but it's monstrous.  Should the circumstances of the place of your birth or home mean that you can't make a living wage, that you can't afford a home?  It sounds simple when it's someone else, but I don't think anyone has really thought this through in the context of migratory manufacturing.  Wherever you move -to- is just the next place the layoffs happen.  

What can we do? Create more jobs and employment opportunities that have market value. Someone in another thread mentioned the value of a post war economy. What drove that economy, production of items the market values.

"Create more jobs".  I've heard that magical phrase alot, it seems difficult to pull of in practice.   The government can "create jobs" by paying one group of people to dig holes and another to fill them (or, roads and whatnot..take yourt pick).  How does that sound?  

What drove the post war economy was the sudden return of people with piled up pay and the gi bill, the loss of many american workers in the war, and increasing production efficiency in the form of limited automation....among other things...... like that tiny little detail of the rest of the industrialized world having been recently laid to waste.  

Not sure how we're going to replicate that..........I mean, I know we could, but....   

Those who denigrate the poor who want change are foolish and misguided.

Those who denigrate the poor are foolish and misguided, period.  They aren't poor for having chosen to be poor.  That's not how poverty works, never has been.  I doubt that theres ever been a group of people in all of human history that have wanted change and more change...more than the poor.  Somehow, though, the poor remain..well....poor.  Why do you think that is?

Sorry, can't buy into your negativity.

[Amarok]

We already schooled your dumb ass on socio economics  so kindly crawl back to Right wing la la land .

[LadyForCamus]

CJ, you're an idiot, lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sorry, can't buy into your negativity.

Poverty isn't exactly a happy go lucky subject brewer...and it certainly isn't reduced or explained in any meaningful way by commenting on people who choose to stay poor. That's not a thing.  It's denigrating flippancy.

[brewer]

Sorry, can't buy into your negativity.

Poverty isn't exactly a happy go lucky subject brewer...and it certainly isn't reduced or explained in any meaningful way by commenting on people who choose to stay poor. That's not a thing.  It's denigrating flippancy.

I help support people who choose to stay poor, personally. They are out there. I wish they didn't make that choice, but they do. 

If you don't know that they exist you need to get out more.