For Rich Fetuses Only, Though

[The Grand Nudger]

Poverty isn't exactly a happy go lucky subject brewer...and it certainly isn't reduced or explained in any meaningful way by commenting on people who choose to stay poor. That's not a thing.  It's denigrating flippancy.

I help support people who choose to stay poor, personally. They are out there. I wish they didn't make that choice, but they do. 

No, you don't.  You choose to conceptualize their poverty in that manner, that's the only person making a choice here.  I wish you didn't make -that- choice..because then, you and I might be able to come up with ways to end the cycle of poverty that's existed for all of human history....but as long as you're writing it off as poor people making the choice to remain poor......snowballs chance in hell.

-and you're one of the -decent- conservatives.  I mean that, it's just that it doesn't seem to be worth much in context.  

If you don't know that they exist you need to get out more.

O-Kay......

[Amarok]

40+  years of dealing with the poor and growing up poor. And i have yet to meet one of these people .

[The Grand Nudger]

I think...and this is just a theory, that some people have a lazy cousin..and they imagine that this lazy cousin is representative of poor people and poverty.  I have a little brother who sits on the couch, lazy as shit.  The irony being that he comes from a good family that has money (at least when the real estate market isn't depressed, lol)...and this is the very -reason- that he can "choose to be poor".  Because he isn't.  

Poor people, actual poor people...can't afford choices.

[Aegon]

For millions of Americans, food and shelter is barely within, or beyond their means.

Means nothing to callous fucks like you, though, does it?

Depends on the situation really.

If they are busting their ass and honestly doing everything that they can, I feel bad for them. But if they keep at it, they will get to a better situation. It's not always quick and/or easy, but it will happen.  

If they are physically and/or mentally disabled and they don't have the means to "Do Better"; that is a legitimate reason for social welfare systems that SHOULD pay way the hell more than they currently do. I would support higher taxes to improve that situation with few questions and no arguments if the government mandated it and didn't skim cash off the top for other things.

If they aren't willing to take the needed steps for self improvement and just expect to make $30 an hour flipping burgers at McDonalds (if they are willing to work at all), or they make $30,000 a year and get ejected from their $300,000 house because they made a really bad personal life decision with their finances; I'm not going to be bothered by that at all. Really sucks if they have kids, but it's not my place or responsibility, nor should it be.

Being a grown up ain't easy and it does require a bit of effort to be successful at it. This is just within the United States though. Many people in other countries are screwed regardless of what they do.

A few weeks ago I was reading editorials by the Farmers Alliance from the 1880s. It was talking about what it called the "success myth." It bashing the idea that as long as you work really hard, you will succeed and be happy. They didn't only not believe it, they were angered by it. They couldn't believe that people who never experienced being part of the working poor would tell them things about their own class, things that they found contradictory to their own experiences. People say the exact same stuff today, on both sides. I admit it's a great talking point. And it's MUCH truer than it was back then, let me tell you. The rise of industrial capitalism was a pretty bad time to be a worker. 

I gotta say, I'm a bit leery getting into a discussion with you. I know from an experience one of ours that you're intellectually dishonest: I proved you wrong about something regarding fiscal responsibility in Red/Blue states and you sort of nonchalantly said, "Wasn't surprised I was wrong" like you're just used to throwing out truth and lies mixed together. 

"If people bust their ass and work really hard, they will get to a better situation" is an assertion, no? Well let's go ahead and test it like we would any other! Lucky for us I don't have to load up STATA, the Pew Research Center did it for us: Moving On Up: Why Do Some Americans Leave the Bottom of the Economic Ladder, but Not Others?

There's the bottom quartile, the 2nd quartile, then the middle quartile. We see that 43% born into the bottom quartile of the income ladder never made it out. For the ones that did, the study underlines key important factors: race, human capital/college attainment, and coming from a two-earned household; whites were 2 more times likely to leave the bottom than blacks, college grads were 5.3 times more likely to leave the bottom (and 2.5 times more likely to reach the middle quartile), and those who came from dual-earner families were 3.4 times more likely to leave the bottom (and 2.8 times more likely to reach the middle). The study also highlights how important financial capital is; those that moved up had 6 times higher median liquid savings, 8 times higher median wealth, and 21 times higher median home equity. This study uses data from 1968 to 2009. 

So, not that surprising I guess. People born into families with more money, even when "more money" is very relative to where they are on the income ladder, they're going to do well. The more you start off with, the better you are. So ability to go to college, ability to have less debt, having two parents that work full time and maximize their value...not a real shock they're able to save, I guess. Not so much news. And that's why I started the post with the anecdote I did. It told me what people have known since the 1880s, CJ; when you're born poor, I mean really poor...your situation is pretty fucking bleak. Your assertion seems to fail, since it implies that anybody regardless of what they're born into, should be able to make it out if they do things right. It's almost dystopian really. Just keep telling them to "work hard, work hard, you'll get here someday!"until they die. Economy has to run, I guess.

You're atheist, CJ, you know well and good that you, me, and that 43% of people who never made it out of the bottom quartile all have one life. Imagine that being your one chance at life... a vain attempt at the American Dream, working insane hours at an insanely low paying job to live rent to rent until you die. Such is life. We don't need to relentlessly vilify (or patronize) the poor anymore, brah. That is soo 80s!

[Ravenshire]

Nah. They're all choosing to stay poor Aegon. Just ask Class Clown Court Jester.

[Aegon]

Nah. They're all choosing to stay poor Aegon. Just ask Class Clown Court Jester.

How he ends that post churns my stomach. It doesn't upset me, it's sort of just... saddening. Growing up isn't easy and requires a "a bit of effort"... wew. All these people were just missing some condescending business owner there to say "Put in a bit of effort, would ya?" 

 

I have to remind myself after conversations like these how lucky I am. Especially with my medical history. Yikes.

EDIT: Remembered a quote from my research that fits CJ's perspective very nicely; from the Topeka Advocate, 1886: "The horror of 'paternalism' hangs like a black pall over the buried hopes of the helpless poor."

[LadyForCamus]

I think...and this is just a theory, that some people have a lazy cousin..and they imagine that this lazy cousin is representative of poor people and poverty.  I have a little brother who sits on the couch, lazy as shit.  The irony being that he comes from a good family that has money (at least when the real estate market isn't depressed, lol)...and this is the very -reason- that he can "choose to be poor".  Because he isn't.  

Poor people, actual poor people...can't afford choices.

I think it's a mistake to broadbrush anyone like this, Khem.  My husband's father and stepmother CHOOSE to be poor in the sense that their bad choices keep them poor.  Choosing to spend their meager paycheck on alcohol and cigarettes instead of groceries, the electric, or fixing their car; choosing to only take jobs from employers who are willing to hire them both as a package deal; choosing to take off of work constantly to watch your kid "play" college baseball when he's only sitting the bench...they wake up every day and make terrible, irresponsible decisions that lead them to exactly where they are now, and have always been, and always will be.  I'm not saying that $200,000/yr job is right around the corner for them if only, but they could at least be financially comfortable (not getting the lights shut off, not having to borrow food stamps from your brother in order to eat) if they put an ounce of forethought into their decisions.  Please understand, I don't believe these two individuals are in any way representative of the poverty-stricken as a group; I think you've known me longer enough to know that.  I'm just saying you can't deny there are going to be a few certified morons in any population of people.  They ARE out there, lol.

[brewer]

I help support people who choose to stay poor, personally. They are out there. I wish they didn't make that choice, but they do. 

No, you don't.  You choose to conceptualize their poverty in that manner, that's the only person making a choice here.  I wish you didn't make -that- choice..because then, you and I might be able to come up with ways to end the cycle of poverty that's existed for all of human history....but as long as you're writing it off as poor people making the choice to remain poor......snowballs chance in hell.

-and you're one of the -decent- conservatives.  I mean that, it's just that it doesn't seem to be worth much in context.  

If you don't know that they exist you need to get out more.

O-Kay......

Yes I do. You choose to keep your head in the sand.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Camus
I've already said that a few certified morons doesn't meaningfully represent poverty, an issue on which we agree.  Nevertheless, the notion that it does persists and it sickens me, and your comments give cover to that notion even though you don't believe it anymore than I do....meanwhile, we've got two people here who think it does...and the country is full of people who agree. As to your relations, plenty of ink has been spilled attempting to explain self destructive and short sighted decisions, particularly in the poor, "choosing to be poor" doesn't meaningfully comment on that...either.

@brewer
If you say so.

[LadyForCamus]

@Camus
I've already said that a few certified morons doesn't meaningfully represent poverty, an issue on which we agree.  Nevertheless, the notion that it does persists and it sickens me, and your comments give cover to that notion even though you don't believe it anymore than I do....meanwhile, we've got two people here who think it does...and the country is full of people who agree.  As to your relations, plenty of ink has been spilled attempting to explain self destructive and short sighted decisions, particularly in the poor, "choosing to be poor" doesn't meaningfully comment on that...either.  

@brewer
If you say so.

I'm not giving cover to anything, Khem.  That there are a couple of morons here who would happily take one stranger's personal anecdote as evidence to support their disgusting position is not in my control.  I also understand that not being food-insecure anymore, and attaining a reliable vehicle (two things these individuals could easily achieve with a little foresight) does not equal, 'not poor anymore.'  In that broader sense, they are as stuck as the rest of them.  My husband climbed his way out of that demographic tooth and nail and suffered greatly in the process, but no one should have to suffer that much to get their head above water.  

I guess I was thinking we could have a discussion about personal responsibility without victim blaming, but I'll concede that a talk about self-destructive behavior, poor or otherwise, warrents its own thread. I wouldn't want to make any harder for our resident clowns than it already is.