Al Franken is latest to be accused of sexual assault

[Amarok]

Wow, just amazing.

Yeah you don't get to hold any kind of moral high ground

[johan]

I'm really struggling a bit with this one. A comedian is on a CSO tour (i.e. working as a funny person) and takes what was intended to be a funny pic. He did not actually grope or even touch the woman but he did purposely take the photo in a way that makes it look like he was groping her. Funny? Not really. Inappropriate? If she was actually sleeping and unaware the photo was being taken, then yes. If she was in the joke and gave permission then no. I assume she was asleep, but I haven't heard where she's said for sure one way or the other.

So assuming she was asleep and unaware, what it inappropriate? Sure. But was it sexual assault if he never touched her? I'm struggling to understand how it that can be called sexual assault if no one actually touched her. But that's only part of the story.

So she agrees to take part in some kind of theatrical performance in which he and she are to kiss. She says she didn't want to kiss and protested, but then she also says she finally agreed. If she agreed, she agreed and any previous protest is no longer relevant. Ah but wait. When the kiss actually came, it was not a 'theatrical' kiss i.e. harmless peck on he mouth. No no, instead he stuck his tongue in her mouth. Now we're getting into the meat and potatoes of the matter. But here's where I'm still struggling with it a bit.

From what I'm reading, she has said that Franken made it clear he was attracted to her and obviously she was not attracted to him. So she agrees to a kiss and he turns it into an advance that was clearly unwanted. No question. But is that sexual assault? This is what I'm struggling with. Because if an unwanted advance and kiss which is not wanted and not reciprocated nor allowed to continue or progress beyond the kiss is sexual assault then guess what? I've been sexually assaulted and I would dare say the majority of men over the age of 13 has probably been sexually assaulted as well.

I know that I'm going to torn to shreds over what I've written here and I'm sure clarifying with the following won't help but here goes anyway. I absolutely believe rape is wrong. I absolutely believe nonconsensual touching and groping is wrong. I absolutely believe women who come forward with accusations need to be listened to and taken seriously.

But I also believe it is unrealistic to ever expect every person to ask for permission before kissing someone they're attracted to for the first time. And that means we're going to continue to live in a world where people (men and women both) will sometimes either read signals incorrectly, or ignore the lack of signals entirely in hopes that a well planted kiss do the trick. Yeah I know, it never does. But people (men and women both) will always be hopeful when they're face to face with someone they're attracted to. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify anything here. Like I said, rape, groping and nonconsensual contact is wrong. But I've had women make advances which I absolutely didn't want and plant their tongue in my mouth and grab my ass etc. And for whatever reason, I did not feel violated or that I'd just been assaulted. Had any of it continued once I said a clear no? Yeah, then maybe I'd have felt like a victim. But honestly I always just felt like I was in a situation where someone was attracted to me and I wasn't attracted back.

So like I said, I'm struggling with this one. Was it assault? If you say it was then I guess it was. But it just really seems a lot like someone was attracted to someone else and didn't stop until he got a firm no. If I'm wrong and I'm an asshole? Well lets face it, I've been an asshole for much less but there's just something about this one that seems just tad bit like grabbing at straws to me.

Maybe what I'm really asking is do I go stand in the victim line or do I go stand in the pervert line? Because I can't recall ever kissing anyone who didn't reciprocate, at least right then in the moment, even it never went further. I can't swear that it never happened but I honestly can't recall any such event. And like I said, I've most definitely had women come on to me that I wasn't interested in and said no to. So do I get in the victim line? Or the perv line? Because I have to say I don't much feel like a victim and I'm not entirely sure I feel comfortable calling myself one. But I also ain't to hep on going and hanging with the pervs just make the statement of hanging with the pervs. It seems we all have to pick sides these days when it comes to these sorts of things. And I'm feeling like I don't really have a side that care to stand for on this one.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Stuff like this is why people will soon be buying sex dolls by the tens of millions. Human relationships are becoming a big pain in the butt for too many people to cope with. The person who develops a fully functioning android will become a trillionaire.

[Neo-Scholastic]

It kinda occurred to me this morning...we never had this kind of widespread identification and shaming of bad guys after 2008 bank crisis.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, we did.....it's just that nothing came of it. What little action was taken is being systematically destroyed by the sex offenders who rule over us.

[Sal]

If all we get is just hand-wavey apologies from these sex offenders, then I don't see how it won't be used in other areas, "Ooops, I was caught using a billion dollars on myself of tax payers money, my bad." and nothing more come of it? Charge them will sexual assault or something, make something of it.

[Seraphina]

I should not be be surprised that people who seek power, also seek to use it in despicable ways.  I'd say we deserve better leaders, but that seems to be increasingly untrue.

FWIW, I also find Louis CK's apology to be insincere.

I do too, especially since he never said "I'm sorry" in his statement last week. But for the NY Times story, he'd still be pulling out his junk in front of women at the first opportunity.

-Teresa

[downbeatplumb]

I've never had a guy cop a feel apologize after I told him it was unwanted. I had a much older man grab me at a concert. When I made it clear I was going to kick his ass if he kept it up, he laughed at me until my guy friend turned around. I had a guy rape kiss me (this incident is the very reason I call it rape kissing) and then tell my friend later (she was his girlfriend) that I kissed him. I had a guy kiss me and then try to go for more. When I told him no, he said "It's too late for that." There are other incidents, but most guys who are the sort to apologize if they crossed a line are the sort to wait for an invitation.

I had a guy grab my ass at the bar once, and he had the nerve to apologize to my husband and his friend; but not me.  His excuse was that he was going through a divorce.  I've also experienced much, much worse than that as, sadly, many of us ladies here have.  I've alot to say on this whole, "what do you expect from drunk college boys anyway?" narrative.  
 

Come on girls!  #AFmetoo!  😋😘

(As every guy on the forum runs in the other direction as fast as possible.)

I was on a party boat (well I say Party boat, it was actually the gosport ferry that was dragooned into pootling round the isle of wight with a DJ and make shift bar), I was talking to my friend, a girl I was standing next too grabbed my arse and looked away with a guilty smirk when I gave a whoop and looked round to see what was going on.
I don't know why she did it, I have a flat arse so it must have been a bit disappointing for her.
Although I had noticed that was drinking full sized bottles of wine through a straw so I guess her taste had been impared somewhat.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Yes, we did.....it's just that nothing came of it.  What little action was taken is being systematically destroyed by the sex offenders who rule over us.

Still pisses me off. The entire world economy collapses like a broken deck chair and just one guy goes to jail. Seems to me that way too much is made out of sex scandals relative to how much it affects other people. Whether or not a person can be trusted with money seems more important than whether he can keep his fly shut. Clinton was still a good president even if he was a sexual predator. Carter was still a shitty president even if he was privately a saint. I'm still trying to figure out how important the whole "character" thing is with respect to politics. Besides character isn't even monolithic. A guy could be a brave soldier, honest businessman, and towering intellect and still be a sexual deviant privately. Does that make him any less brave, honest, or smart, when those are the qualities demanded for his station?

[The Grand Nudger]

We can walk and chew bubblegum.  No reason to think that going after corporate scumbags cuts into sexual scumbags time.  As far as character meaning something...maybe not as much as some think, but we're certainly justified in having minimum standards.  

There are enough brave, honest, towering intellects in the world that we don't have to settle for a deviant on any of those counts. The trouble at present is that while none of the first three things seems to be an advantage in politics, the third has overlap on a venn diagram with the types of people who might succeed in politics.