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How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
#21
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
It is not about that it could or it couldn't , it is about cause and effect , how can we be sure that the Universe could be possible in any other form than this one ?
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#22
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
The item being criticized is possible -on this world, in this universe-...amigo.  That's the problem. It wouldn't have to be "some other way". The model exists, here. It's all around you, it's the basis of all life.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#23
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
Yeah it exists , so how can you argue that it could be better, taking into account that we can't know at the moment the effects that will occur if we were autothrops( wich only works for plants and bacteria because they aren't as complex as we are)?
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#24
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
Plants and bacteria are every bit as complex as we are...notions to the contrary rely on terms of art.  The relevant difference is that autotrophic metabolism would be a qualified and unmitigated improvement on our own..because it's already better than our own. If we could engineer it in to ourselves - we'd do it in a heartbeat. I can tell you exactly what would happen if we were autotrophs.

We'd be capable of synthesizing metabolic requirements from inorganic material.  Full stop.  That's it, that's all.  With that one difference much would be changed vis-a-vis the suffering and pain and utter nastiness in this world.  That we have metabolic requirements in the first place is a crutch no divine force would have been forced to rely upon, but here we are.  We -already- leverage autotrophism to reduce the flaws of both the design of this world and our own on moral and practical grounds...as the metabolism of autotrophs is more efficient and less shitty than the heterotrophic method of "eat em asshole first while they live" in the first place.

You are reasserting a failed objection that you thought was "kind of a fallacy". Not only is it not a fallacy, it's inarguable that what we know to be possible bcause it is present in this world, would reduce suffering in this world...and we're not only actively leveraging it to that very effect, we're looking to mimic the ability with technology. Yet another patch, as hunting was a patch, as farming was a patch, on the poor design of this proposed creator...thought up and employed by the very chimps it benevolently failed to contain or provide for, in it's omniscience, in it's omnipotence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#25
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
Actually I have already read some articles on it , all of them say that autotrophy can't produce sufficient energy for us to live .
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#26
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
Which is absurd, since autotrophic organisms produce -all- of the energy we subsist on in the first place. Even limited autotrophism..such as is already present in a select few animals, would necessarily reduce some suffering.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#27
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
https://www.quora.com/Can-humans-become-...future-How

https://www.google.ro/amp/s/journalclubs...umans/amp/

https://www.quora.com/Is-an-autotrophic-...s-possible


https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Earth...autotrophs

So this are 4 sources. Autotrophic organism may produce all the energy that we need , but the energy that they need to survive is far less.
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#28
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
There are pressures on evolutionary biology that make it difficult for us to express this trait - but no reason as to why a divine engineer couldn't write it in, when he did for them and even for other animals.  

The links you present seem to focus entirely on photosynthetic autotrophism, not the only kind..but fair enough...however, from your own links... 
(3 shitty quora...what the actual fuck man..up your game, lol)

All the quora links circle the drain with the same objection "super difficult, messes with evolution, etc etc etc)
Quote:Theoretically, it's definitely within the realm of the possible. But it would be screwing with millions of years of evolution, and would more than likely result in a lot of messed up humans.
Not a problem for the "creator".  It's becoming less and less of a problem for the jumped up chimps.

-from the second
Quote:But it’s not all doom and gloom. Although 7% doesn’t sound like much it all adds up. Just think 13,800,000 km2 of the earth’s surface is taken up by crops and farmland, 7% of this is nearly 1 million square kilometres, an area about the size of Egypt! This land could be put to use as housing to ease the worlds crippling over population and lack of space, or even as extra public parks and spaces.

But what if we kept this land as farm land? What if we used it to a better purpose? 1,000,000 km 2 of farm land equates to a lot of food. If we take the example of wheat, the world’s staple food and one of the most important grains in production. In the year of 2010 the world wheat production was 651 megatons. If 7% of this was going spare, 45.5 megatons, we would have enough grain to feed nearly half a billion people (assuming average consumption of 100kg per annum).  But then again, there are around 1 billion malnourished people in the world, so would this 45.5 megatons of wheat stretch that far? Let’s look at the human body’s most essential micronutrient, iron. Iron is needed to allow the oxygen we breathe in to bond to the haemoglobin in our blood, without which, we simply wouldn’t be able to live. Iron deficiency is defined as having less than 55% of our recommended daily intake of iron. So if we assume that less than 55% of any food stuff equates to malnourishment, or a food deficiency, our ½ billion people worth’s of food could feed every malnourished child, adult and homeless person in the world (within the realms of statistical error).

No matter how you slice it...and even if you stay within the confines of current evolutionary biology......for reasons?......it's inescapable.  The design was flawed, so we had to come up with a method of food production.  This didn't completely surmount our own design flaws (or the flaws of livestock..why -do- they feel pain..again, from a creators point of view?), so we improved our model of food production to be more ethical and..well, productive.  Even this is not completely sufficient, but if we had just a modicum of the abilities granted to other "created organisms"..it would be that much improved yet again.

One can only surmise that the proposed creator is an idiot....or he just enjoys the show. Can a better world be engineered, within the realm of possibility and in this world? OFC it can..we've been doing it for at least 10k years.

As a fun bit of speculative biology, there's no discernable reason -other- than predation that the autotrophs didn't develop into the dominant sentient life forms on the planet, they're already dominant..but their broad immotility means that organs like brains, or at least like our brains..would be a deleterious adaptation. Yet another "oopsie" moment for the author of life. Nevertheless, even -they- improved upon their design to the point that many plants are capable of expressing behaviors commonly associated with "more complex" animals - granting them immense advantage over their counterparts. God just can't get anything right, apparently.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#29
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
What would be the enviromental impact of our autophilia? What impact would it have on ourselfs? You are not answering my first statement you are just saying it would be nice to be that way , because of our limited understanding of the world , we are unable to see the full impact of such a thing. If you want to go ahead and say " i certainly know that it would be better and it won't have negative effects " not my problem .
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#30
RE: How do religious people justify raising and slaughtering animals for food?
The environmental impact of autotrophism in human beings, even in a limited manifestation, was briefly touched upon in one of your own links..which I just quoted.  

It's not my job to imagine the problems you think might be apparent with the ability to synthesize some or all of ones own food from inorganic material.  The ethical "problems" for this in it's purest form are, frankly....nil, and in it;s current form it is a -solution- to ethical and practical problems as agriculture.  Whatever amount of our food we could synthesize is a reduction in the suffering of whatever animals we'd otherwise eat, or destroy to make arable land... and a reduction in the suffering of human animals who would not otherwise eat at all..and any additional suffering that arose from conflict over those resources we would not, then, need consume or seek. If you can't see the improvements we've already made..then perhaps you should go back to scavenging for nuts and trying to trick pigs into pits filled with fire hardened spikes and get a practical education?

If you want to play the "but what if" game...then at least finish the sentence. If there is a design, if there is a creator... the flaws of that design and the limits of that creator are made apparent in all of the improvements that we have been forced by necessity of survival to make, and which we further refined for no reason other than what must amount to a greater capacity and adherence to ethical standards than the being which purportedly created us. Even moreso by all the improvements we can see but cannot yet actualize- our wish to do better combined with our inability to grant wishes. We did this, all of it, without a single ounce of the proposed power and knowledge of some ridiculous god.

"But what if"...but what if what? What if things had been different? Then things would be different. If the clock could be rolled back then the human race would certainly have some hot tips for the bumbler at the cosmic controls.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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