Arguments Against Creator God

[Cod]

No idea,  how do you think the first god came into existence?

Saying " I don't know" doesn't come easy to theists. They have all the answers.

[The Grand Nudger]

Doesn't seem like it, from where I sit. Sure, they say alot of shit...but somehow™ the questions remained stubbornly unanswered.

[Catholic_Lady]

The OP claims that we (theists) reject "all other explanations." I'd like to know what explanations he's referring to. I also have other things to say about that, but would like to hear these supposed explanations first.

I think the real issue is that why do theists make up explanations for things that are yet unknown?

My issue currently is that the OP made a claim, saying we reject all other explanations. I'm still waiting to hear what those explanations are.

[The Grand Nudger]

The shortlist:

Always Been.
This.
Something Else.
Not That.
We Don't Know.

Every christian has always been aware that theirs was one of a number of answers. This was apparent even at the Dawn of Cathol. Not than anyone -has- to give an answer in the first place, that a non answer defaults to god, or an argument from ignorance or incredulity is even remotely compelling. This has always forced the faithful to play stupid..or..you know...-be- stupid.

[purplepurpose]

Doesn't seem like it, from where I sit. Sure, they say alot of shit...but somehow™ the questions remained stubbornly unanswered.

"I have faith/warm/special feeling that Living Almighty Magic exists and so on...". Only special feeling.

[GrandizerII]

Many theists argue that God is the most reasonable explanation for the universe because it doesn't make sense otherwise. If there is no God, then how can something physical like the universe come to be? According to them, there has to be some unphysical "power", unbounded by the laws of nature, that led to the existence of the physical. And they are convinced no other explanation is good enough to match the apparent plausibility of their own position.

I'd like to hear your theory/guess/explanation as to how the first ever physical thing came into existance.

I don't believe in the first ever physical thing coming into existence. I thought I've made this clear several times.

But let me list two alternative explanations to God. And let's see how you logically rule them out. Remember, logic, not intuition.

One is the cosmos and everything in it has always been (this is what I personally believe). So no "coming into existence" out of literal nothing.

Another is there is one uncaused mindless cause in the cosmos that caused everything else in existence. Hammy, I believe, adheres to this option (correct me, Hammy, if mistaken).

Also, nothing to say about any of my arguments against the Creator God? Or do you just not care enough about whether that kind of God is logically possible or not?

[Catholic_Lady]

I'd like to hear your theory/guess/explanation as to how the first ever physical thing came into existance.

I don't believe in the first ever physical thing coming into existence. I thought I've made this clear several times.

But let me list two alternative explanations to God. And let's see how you logically rule them out. Remember, logic, not intuition.

One is the cosmos and everything in it has always been (this is what I personally believe). So no "coming into existence" out of literal nothing.

Another is there is one uncaused mindless cause in the cosmos that caused everything else in existence. Hammy, I believe, adheres to this option (correct me, Hammy, if mistaken).

Ok, so your theory/best guess is that the cosmos and everything in it has always been there. What exactly is "the cosmos"?

(I don't understand hammy's theory, but want to just focus on yours for now)

[GrandizerII]

I don't believe in the first ever physical thing coming into existence. I thought I've made this clear several times.

But let me list two alternative explanations to God. And let's see how you logically rule them out. Remember, logic, not intuition.

One is the cosmos and everything in it has always been (this is what I personally believe). So no "coming into existence" out of literal nothing.

Another is there is one uncaused mindless cause in the cosmos that caused everything else in existence. Hammy, I believe, adheres to this option (correct me, Hammy, if mistaken).

Ok, so your theory/best guess is that the cosmos and everything in it has always been there. What exactly is "the cosmos"?

(I don't understand hammy's theory, but want to just focus on yours for now)

It's not a theory, first of all. It's just a proposition/belief, just like the God belief.

The cosmos is everything in existence aside from the divine (and the supernatural). It can comprise multiple universes, even infinite number of them, and other "natural" stuff that we have yet to even conceive of.

The cosmos is here, and as I argued in the OP, we can't have non-existence in place of it. Therefore, the cosmos has always been.

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok, so your theory/best guess is that the cosmos and everything in it has always been there. What exactly is "the cosmos"?

(I don't understand hammy's theory, but want to just focus on yours for now)

It's not a theory, first of all. It's just a proposition/belief, just like the God belief.

The cosmos is everything in existence aside from the divine (and the supernatural). It can comprise multiple universes, even infinite number of them, and other "natural" stuff that we have yet to even conceive of.

The cosmos is here, and as I argued in the OP, we can't have non-existence in place of it. Therefore, the cosmos has always been.

Yes, proposition/belief, that's what I meant. Thank you.

So when you say you believe the cosmos have always been here, you mean everything in existence has always been here?

[Banned]

Thankyou for sharing your thoughts on these matters in some detail.

Which I summarize as follows, - "I don't believe in God because there are a few essential factors which don't make any logical sense."

Fair enough, and you also admitted that we as humans are limited in our understanding. I think we have fallen a long way from our original state of intelligence.

I assume that your religion failed to deliver the details you were entitled to know. None the less, you may persist in finding the answers for yourself in the Bible, you can advance above common religion, science and thinking.

Here are a few comments on your reasons below.

The Impossibility of "Nothingness"

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created everything else in existence. This means that, when nothing other than God existed, there was only God, with "nothing" initially in place of everything else that existed (remember: the Creator God is supposed to be separate from everything else in existence). But for this "nothing" to exist, it has to be something. For to exist is to be. Yet, how can something that is not and yet is (simultaneously) be logical? It is not logical. Therefore, logically speaking, there has always been something alongside the Creator God. Therefore, the Creator God did not create everything else in existence. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist.

God isn't nothing, so there is no reason to conclude that something came from nothing.

The Impossibility of "Something from Nothing"

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created everything else in existence out of nothing. But to create anything out of nothing (or for anything to pop up out of nothing, for that matter), there has to be a "nothing" out of which the thing being created (or popping out) arises. But even if we grant that "nothing" can exist (though I argued in the previous argument that it cannot), it possesses no material whatsoever from which anything can arise, for it is supposed to be nothing. Therefore, because things exist, they have at least originated in something that has always existed. The Creator God, being separate from everything else in existence, cannot be that material origin. Therefore, the Creator God cannot logically create anything out of nothing. Therefore, the Creator God did not create anything. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist.

Things were created by the power or the substance of the Word of God, which is something which goes out from God's mouth and returns to him in whatever form he has thought.
The Word isn't sound in the air, it is the breath, the light and the life of God. It has infinite properties, and it contains wisdom or intelligence, all the possibilities of power and organisation, and the power of life itself, which is able to create a horrendously massive creation, with an infinite number of activities and relations etc.

Basically the Word is as great as God in all of its power. There are many features of the Word which we should discuss in detail, because they give the correct understanding of the nature of matter and how things not only exist, but how they were made. 

Religions in general do not get into the nitty gritty of the Bible, they just pretend to have its authority and then trample on its requirements.

The Impossibility of Timeless Creation

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created time itself. But the act of creating, or doing anything for that matter, already implies a passage of time occurring. To create time is to create time within time. Therefore, time has always been and could not have been created. Therefore, the Creator God did not create time. Therefore, negating the classical definition of the Creator God, the Creator God does not exist (if the Creator God is supposed to create everything else in existence, including time).

The concept of time is out of our general capability to reason, and from what I have read in sceintific treatises, our theories are like trying to fly by pulling up on the shoe laces.

But the Bible gives many clues about time, which are fascinating, without going into detail - it's a big library.

However, there are about ten major features about time, (just like there are ten basic laws of God which govern all of creation - both spiritually and physically) one of tose features is that it can be experienced differently. That goes without saying, and it is a topic which has been discussed in some scientific disciplines.

The Bible says that "One day (with the Lord, not with men) is as a thousand years..." and visa versa.

The ability to have the full options in the experiences of time, depends on the level of intelligence and physical power/energy.

In the case of God, the time rates and experiences of the universe are deliberate equations, of which there are an endless variety, but there are specific and general principles, which govern all of the creation, so that one day and hour equals literal time, no matter where you go. There is a universal consistency.

BTW, all creations, have a simple side and a complex side. For instance the simple cell, isn't simple at all, but is as complex as all of the knowledge in the world at this time.

We already accept the simple side of time, and that's generally what is discussed in science.

But as far as Divinity is concerned time is not a constraint, but one (intergrating) tool of an endless number of tools, that have been incorporated.

We are allowed to discuss the realm of God, in the persistent context of our limited capability, as you have already pointed out.

The Impossibility of Mindful Creation

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly exercised the divine mind to "think" everything else into existence. To exercise the mind is to imply a passage of time. Otherwise, it would be a spontaneous mindless act. Yet, if we grant the possibility of timeless creation (and I have argued otherwise in the previous argument), then there was no time to exercise the mind before creation. Rather, the creation would be the outcome of something akin to some hypothetical "super computer software" that contains infinite information and acts spontaneously upon them. It is a mindless act, and not a mindful one. Therefore, the Creator God did not mindfully create anything into existence outside of time. Therefore, the mind is not a possible requirement for creating everything in existence aside from itself. Some things, at least, were mindlessly created. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist (as per the definition of the Creator God).

You've bought up some interesting points here, and they are complex.

In a sense God did not deliberate the creation of the universe, it was consequential of his existence. It was spontaneous without fore-thought, but on the other hand it was always fully and completely planned. In the case of Divinity it can be both at once.

Take for instance, the words of Jesus about himself, he says "I am the first and the last, the beginning and the ending, the alpha and the omega...etc"

He did not say "I make beginnings and endings" although that is true, but he is both the beginning and ending simultaneously. Go figure that one out.

It's all very interesting, and we will inevitably discuss the details.