Ohio bans doctors from performing Down Syndrome abortions

[GrandizerII]

Like I said earlier, people should be honest about the reality of what they are doing. If someone thinks it is okay to kill another human being in the early stages of his or her development they they should just admit it. That's the reality and everything else, whether or not the unborn can feel pain or are viable or count as persons etc,... that's all just window dressing. The question always is and always will be, is it or is it not moral to to kill very young human beings.

You keep forgetting conveniently that you are against a woman deciding for herself what to do with her own body. You dont give two shits about fetuses.

[Edwardo Piet]

Like I said earlier, people should be honest about the reality of what they are doing. If someone thinks it is okay to kill another human being in the early stages of his or her development they they should just admit it. That's the reality and everything else, whether or not the unborn can feel pain or are viable or count as persons etc,... that's all just window dressing. The question always is and always will be, is it or is it not moral to to kill very young human beings.

If you're supposedly so insistent on being honest then how come you keep pretending that an egg or fetus that has the potential to become a human being already is a human being when they by definition haven't actually became a human being yet . . . ?

Seems like you're the only one obfuscating here.

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Like I said earlier, people should be honest about the reality of what they are doing. If someone thinks it is okay to kill another human being in the early stages of his or her development they they should just admit it. That's the reality and everything else, whether or not the unborn can feel pain or are viable or count as persons etc,... that's all just window dressing. The question always is and always will be, is it or is it not moral to to kill very young human beings.

By your definition a sperm is a human being 🙄
So is a tumor.

So yes. It’s moral to kill a human being so long as that human being isn’t viable outside the body of a person.

^^^

It's his definition that's crap. Indeed.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Betty Bowers on biblical abortion = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq3U09De...P5&index=9

[Amarok]

According to the bible the answer to Wooters question is yes .

[Brian37]

If your source to objection to abortion, is a book that has God murdering the Egyptian first born over a beef he has with an adult, sorry, your credibility is shot.

[vorlon13]

If your source to objection to abortion, is a book that has God murdering the Egyptian first born over a beef he has with an adult, sorry, your credibility is shot.

And advancing heresy as gospel is a big no-no too . . .

[Pat Mustard]

I know I've posted this before in another abortion thread, but I have a good idea what'd happen if abortion was de-legalised over in the US. You'd get cases were a brain dead woman was kept alive for twenty four days because the law says to protect her 14 week old foetus (which has no chance of surviving).

Link here http://www.thejournal.ie/woman-court-unb...6-Dec2014/ WARNING SOME GRUESOME DETAILS

Next bit spoiled to hide details.

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You'd have a situation where a dead woman is kept on life support with her brain and major organs liquifying running a 40 degrees Celsius fever, being pumped with an unmerciful amount of drugs in the vain attempt to stop them spreading to the foetus. All because fundies wrote a law saying that foetuses are people too, and they shouldn't be "killed".

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That is the kind of shit you get in countries that ban abortions. I'm sure plenty of forumites here have had relatives die or be severely disfigured by back alley abortions before they were legalised and made safe.

[Amarok]

Oh wol that's not even the most horrific story i have heard from countries were abortion is illegal .

[LadyForCamus]

A newborn infant is not conscious.  It can’t even distinguish between itself and its mother.  That is a scientific fact.

But a fetus can tell it's mothers voice according to you ?

Not to mention the fact the article you linked only studied infants at a later age. They themselves say they would do a further studies on infants 2 weeks old . Clearly implying this is not sweeping study at birth.

Not to mention the matter seems hardly as clear cut as your saying
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/baby-la...index.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25721916

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news...abies.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ility.html

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/b...ath-skills

So your position seems incoherent.

My position isn’t incoherent, though I’ll admit my explanation of it was.  First, just to be perfectly clear, I consider myself pro-choice.  I am not advocating for a sweeping ban on abortions.  Data and facts on the subject speak for themselves.  

I think the science is pretty clear on the fact that a new born does not simply slide out of the birth canal and burst into the world with a sophisticated consciousness.  So, I stand by my statement that a newborn is hardly more conscious than a late term fetus because I think it’s a scientifically sound one.  And, if you’re going to provide evidence of rudimentary components of consciousness in utero, then you must realize that evidence would refute your own overly-simplistic argument of: “not born yet, not conscious, no problem.”

Human gestation, and the development of consciousness is a process.  It is true that a cascade of physiological reactions occur during labor and delivery which further stimulate the development of consciousness, but to describe a continuous process as binary; as on/off”, or, “not conscious/conscious” is a misrepresentation.   A fully conscious human represents the culmination of a series of gradations increasing in complexity over a period of time that spans from conception, all the way into infant and toddler hood.  So, when people say, ‘in the womb, not a person, born, instantly a person,’ or when they assert there is no meaningful biological difference between a blastocyst and a six month old fetus, I think this is an intellectually dishonest and scientifically inaccurate position.

My position...is that a conversation about where, as a society, we should draw that legal line, what we use as metrics to determine where we draw it, and why we’ve chosen those metrics, is a scientifically, morally, and logically justified conversation.  

I don’t agree with the position of some that viability outside the womb, and/or degree of consciousness, together or alone, are adequate criterion for determining the legality of a termination.  Just because a living thing is not fully conscious, doesn’t mean that it can’t experience. Just because a late term fetus is not self-aware doesn’t mean it cannot feel pain, distress, or comfort.

I’m not here to assert where we should draw that line in the sand.  I have no idea.  As a parent of two small children, I’m probably the last person who should be weighing in.  I’m just saying that I think people who assert it’s not a meaningful, worthwhile and warranted discussion to have, are wrong. 😛

[GrandizerII]

But a fetus can tell it's mothers voice according to you ?

Not to mention the fact the article you linked only studied infants at a later age. They themselves say they would do a further studies on infants 2 weeks old . Clearly implying this is not sweeping study at birth.

Not to mention the matter seems hardly as clear cut as your saying
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/baby-la...index.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25721916

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news...abies.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ility.html

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/b...ath-skills

So your position seems incoherent.

My position isn’t incoherent, though I’ll admit my explanation of it was.  First, just to be perfectly clear, I consider myself pro-choice.  I am not advocating for a sweeping ban on abortions.  Data and facts on the subject speak for themselves.

And its these data and facts that show us why keeping abortion legal is essential. Because making it illegal only makes things worse for both mother and child.