Arguments Against Thomistic philosophy

[emjay]

Or paranoia... which the Quran itself relentlessly promotes in its descriptions of non-believers. In other words, at its extreme, an unfalsifiable conspiracy theory about the nature of non-believers. That's how I see it.

Just to be clear I added the quote because it is one of my favorite. I don't think MK is stupid. He seems very intelligent to me. Nor am I saying he is wrong either, just that he is definitely not dishonest.

Yeah, I gathered. And no, I don't think he's dishonest either... not willfully anyway. As I said I just see it as the effects of paranoia... but not as the be all and end all of him... ie it's a mode he seems to go into... and come out of... but just saying that while he is in that mode, I can't take his arguments seriously; as no-one can when someone or something relentlessly claims 'all x are y' when you're an x that's not a y. When he's not in that mode he can be very thoughtful.

[Mystic]

I'd rather you guys have it believe that I am not genuine than to think it's possible to truthfully believe without doubt in something that is not knowledge, and that that is possible without a firm conclusive proof.

I'd rather you guys think that I realize I am not sure deep inside, that to confuse the issue of knowledge.

It's impossible to be 100% honest to yourself whether you are justified to be certain, and for that to be wrong.

If it's possible for you to be honest to yourself that you know while it's that you don't know, then there is no way to know anything truthfully.

You will say yes you can know by evidence something is true, but that is not enough, you have to know you understood the evidence and proofs to prove the thing beyond doubt.

Certainty has the following criteria:

1. You can't be equating what you believe by conjecture with what you know for certain, if you do so,  your knowledge will be all confused in a mess, and you don't know anymore when you really are justified or not, because you believe in somethings out of your desires and think it's knowledge, but really is conjecture, and there are somethings you do know but then out of your desire you don't acknowledge.

2. You have to be honest with what you don't really know to know what you do know, and you have to be honest with what you know to know what you don't. So honesty is requirement, but it also works the other way. If you are honest, you will acknowledge what you should know by certainty and you will know what you are allowed to doubt because it has not been proven to you.

3.  It's a reflective vision that sees the proofs clearly and affirms them. If you haven't reflected on proofs and can't see when something is proven. You ought to begin to reflect in your own way, so that you can learn to prove things in how your mind functions.

4.  It seeks help and all means necessary to arrive at the truth, it's genuine in seeking the truth, and doesn't care who says it.

5. It is humble to the extent it accepts truth from a child.

6. It is strength to the extent that if the whole world disagreeing and be blind to it's sight will not deter it, just as the whole world believing in something won't convince it.

[emjay]

The problem, MK, is that it is indeed possible... and in fact likely... to feel absolute certainty - to the core of your being - and be completely wrong nine times out of ten. It happens to me all the time in Mafia games... or at least it used to... until I became more aware of the effect. As such, I don't trust the feeling of emotional certainty at all... and therefore don't seek it... quite the reverse in fact... if I feel it, it's tells me that something's likely wrong with my thinking... that I am probably succumbing to confirmation bias... and therefore that I should consider whatever conclusion I've reached, unreliable. Basically, all I seek is confidence, not certainty. Anyway, Mafia games are a breeding ground for paranoia, confirmation bias, and the associated feelings of certainty... depending on how emotionally involved you get in the game... though imo even the most rational and detached players aren't completely immune to it... so why not have a few games to see what I'm talking about? If you experience what I'm talking about, and can honestly say that it's nothing like the sort of certainty you're describing, then fair enough. But if it does seems similar, then at least that's something to reflect on?

[polymath257]

The problem, MK, is that it is indeed possible... and in fact likely... to feel absolute certainty - to the core of your being - and be completely wrong nine times out of ten. It happens to me all the time in Mafia games... or at least it used to... until I became more aware of the effect. As such, I don't trust the feeling of emotional certainty at all... and therefore don't seek it... quite the reverse in fact... if I feel it, it's tells me that something's likely wrong with my thinking... that I am probably succumbing to confirmation bias... and therefore that I should consider whatever conclusion I've reached, unreliable. Basically, all I seek is confidence, not certainty. Anyway, Mafia games are a breeding ground for paranoia, confirmation bias, and the associated feelings of certainty... depending on how emotionally involved you get in the game... though imo even the most rational and detached players aren't completely immune to it... so why not have a few games to see what I'm talking about? If you experience what I'm talking about, and can honestly say that it's nothing like the sort of certainty you're describing, then fair enough. But if it does seems similar, then at least that's something to reflect on?

As they say, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

If you are *absolutely convinced* of something, you are likely deluding yourself. Always, always, always be *more* skeptical of ideas that line up with your biases.

One thing mathematicians have learned: the weakest link in logic is usually after the word "Clearly".

[Mister Agenda]

He has stated that every atheist on this site (and everywhere, presumably) is lying about not believing in God and he is sticking with that. I'll be the judge of what's called for when I'm dealing with such a mealy-mouthed weasel. He sincerely thinks we're all liars. You're free to consider that virtuous. I'm not going to forget it.

Even if that were true, and I don't know cause I wasn't there, if he sincerely believes it and if it's not true then it's just a mistake, not a lie.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

If he sincerely believes it is true, then he knows that his arguments will never work because we all are secretly amazed and convinced by them and unwilling to admit it. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that those who are readiest to believe dishonesty of others are most likely to be dishonest themselves. His entire participation in a forum where he presumes anyone who disagrees with him is dishonest is fundamentally insincere. He posts as though he expects honest answers, but he doesn't. As long as his position is that we're being dishonest, he gets no slack from me.

[Neo-Scholastic]

"All I have written is but straw." - Thomas Aquinas

[Mister Agenda]

Compared to what is now revealed to me....

[LastPoet]

"All I have written is but straw." - Thomas Aquinas

Shhh, Neo, the truth is not to be spoken like that, or is this one of those cases where "I fool you with the truth" ?

[Jehanne]

"All I have written is but straw." - Thomas Aquinas

I think that he made that statement after suffering from a stroke. In addition, he also claimed to have had direct visions from Jesus. In any case, Thomas' entire worldview was grounded in falsehoods.

[Whateverist]

Had us going, Neo. I knew you were an atheist at heart. Or maybe you're of two minds?