Do I believe Atheists are going to hell?

[SteveII]

I am still finding I have no substantial disagreement with the official Catholic position on this subject: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online...lic-church

If you were born a Muslim and never heard of Jesus, then you are "invincibly ignorant" and you will be judged on your response to what was revealed to you. I don't think this a low bar--you have to actually try. There is room for your "honest mistake" in this scenario only. 

If you were born a Muslim and heard of Jesus and the plan of salvation, now you have an obligation to respond to that specifically. 

This takes care of any objection based on not being fair, or unlucky as to place of birth.

Tim Staples (the guy who answered the question) is a former protestant turned catholic and takes the uber conservative approach to everything lol. I am familiar with him. Nothing he says is heretical, but his take away/break down is certainly on the very conservative end of the spectrum. If you read the actual catechism, it speaks about having knowledge, and purposely rejecting that knowledge. That's the crux. It doesn't necessarily specify that it can only mean literally that you have never heard of Jesus. It's certainly one for sure way of not having knowledge, and is perhaps why it was used as an example, but I don't see how it's only way. I don't think even Tim said explicitly that it's the only way, though that seems to be his implication. 

In contrast, check out how this priest answered the same question and said no such thing: http://www.xt3.com/library/view.php?id=9728

...In the very end of it, he even says this about atheists: "...if through no ill will someone cannot believe in God, but nevertheless lives a morally upright life then in some way God's grace will be able to work." He then says "Obviously here it depends on each individual and we have to leave it up to God to judge." ... which has really been my main point through all of this.

I understand. The caution would be that to adopt a liberal interpretation of this doctrine is the the price of being wrong is of ultimate significance. Telling people they are okay as long as they honestly try is not only a very minority position among all Christian groups (including Catholics), but seems motivated by emotions--not a different interpretation of scripture. If people come to rely on this for their own lives, the price of being wrong has eternal consequences.

[pocaracas]

And just how would anyone know any of that, Steve?

The doctrines come from assembling the information we have in the Bible into a systematic, internally consistent framework.

And how was the bible assembled?

---

I also wanted to discuss this specifically. Because I do very much see it as still being a chance/unlucky thing.

Let's just be reasonable for a second here. If you were raised a Muslim, believed in salvation through Islam, believed in Mohammed, etc etc... how would you know that you had a moral obligation to examine Christianity in the first place?? How would you be like "Well, I was taught by my parents and everyone I love and trust that Islam is the way to salvation... but someone mentioned something about some Jesus guy today and said I need to be Christian to be saved. Yikes! I better look into it." I mean, do we, as Christians, feel like we have a moral obligation to look into other religions because people of those religions also say you need to be saved through their own prophet? If you and I were raised Muslim chances are we'd both be Muslim today lol.

We all have a moral obligation to seek truth, yes, but we can't discount the fact that people can make honest mistakes and that upbringing and other factors which are outside their control doesn't play a role in their conclusion of the truth.

So going purely by whether or not you've heard of Jesus still seems unfair and unlucky if you happened to be born into a different faith.

CL, can you point that mirror in other directions and realize that things operate the same way, regardless of which religion you're looking at?... Even yours.
Were you lucky to be born in a society that got the right one?... or also unlucky, like all others?
What are the odds?

[WinterHold]

To clarify here, Catholicism certainly does not teach that people of other faiths are damned, and that only people who died Christian go to Purgatory. We make no such judgements on the state of souls that way.

I'd like to further add to this in case I haven't been clear enough on my earlier posts. I do believe that Christ is the way to salvation. But as Catholics we do leave an open door at least to the possibility of a person following Christ without the explicit knowledge of doing so. Some of us are more optimistic/charitable than others about this. I'm in the former category.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-...s-be-saved

The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation

CL.. As a Muslim and an Arab; I assure you that other Catholics didn't just see my people as "infidels worthy of hell" back in the past; but they even waged a bloody barbarian war called "the Crusade" against us; then went on to exterminate a whole population of Heathens in South and North America.

The Catholic faith is a contradictory faith that had so many faces across history; and changed skins and colors depending on the social and economic situation of the vessel it filled; but one thing for certain: Catholics did this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh

But we can say that the times of Saladin are long gone; demons like the Lion Heart are long dead; but I think Catholicism of today is not even Catholicism anymore. Its label needs to change to something else. But the notion of "not judging" is just a direct rip-off from other faiths and doctrines, in other words the new skin Catholicism is wearing, cannot erase what the Lion Heart have carved; or what these guys had eaten:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma%27arra

[pocaracas]

Atlas, it's not like the Arab Muslims had been quiet... Taking, by the sword, all the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa, and (what got the Catholics particularly angry) Israel...
Not to mention the excursions into southern Europe, what is now Portugal, Spain and Italy got invaded and converted to Islam.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'd like to further add to this in case I haven't been clear enough on my earlier posts. I do believe that Christ is the way to salvation. But as Catholics we do leave an open door at least to the possibility of a person following Christ without the explicit knowledge of doing so. Some of us are more optimistic/charitable than others about this. I'm in the former category.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-...s-be-saved

The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation

CL.. As a Muslim and an Arab; I assure you that other Catholics didn't just see my people as "infidels worthy of hell" back in the past; but they even waged a bloody barbarian war called "the Crusade" against us; then went on to exterminate a whole population of Heathens in South and North America.

The Catholic faith is a contradictory faith that had so many faces across history; and changed skins and colors depending on the social and economic situation of the vessel it filled; but one thing for certain: Catholics did this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh

But we can say that the times of Saladin are long gone; demons like the Lion Heart are long dead; but I think Catholicism of today is not even Catholicism anymore. Its label needs to change to something else. But the notion of "not judging" is just a direct rip-off from other faiths and doctrines, in other words the new skin Catholicism is wearing, cannot erase what the Lion Heart have carved; or what these guys had eaten:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma%27arra

I usually don't read/respond to your ramblings, but this is particularly frustrating, since 1. you're a Muslim from Saudi trying to teach a practicing catholic about Catholicism, and 2. the exact quote of mine you are responding to as well as numerous Catholic links already posted here address specifically what that phrase means, and it isn't what you are trying to portray out of context, and 3. You're a Muslim... Islam is the most violtent religion on the planet by far and you have 0 room to criticize other religions' history when your own is still neck deep in it 1400 years later.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Atlas 

Pot meet kettle.  Neither of you are satisfied with the strictures of either of your respective religions. I note that neither of you particularly likes being told that you're casual pick-and-choose believers, regardless of how true that is or how well it can be demonstrated. Perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, both of you are right about each others faiths and atheists are right about both of yours. See...errybody can be right about this one thing, lol.

-and then there will be that much more peace in the world.

From an outsiders point of view..both of you are saying "I don;t believe the shit those guys say, now let me tell you what those guys told me". It's perplexing, to put it mildly.

[WinterHold]

Atlas, it's not like the Arab Muslims had been quiet... Taking, by the sword, all the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa, and (what got the Catholics particularly angry) Israel...
Not to mention the excursions into southern Europe, what is now Portugal, Spain and Italy got invaded and converted to Islam.

No; procaracas. Questioning the savagery of Catholics and Christians in general in wars, is quite a breach to all historical records; written by Christians before Muslims.

I don't recall the Iron Maiden being a Muslim invention; I also didn't hear about "Hamza the Impaler".
Muslims created an Andalus out of the hell of the Goths in Spain. But when Christians took Spain; we saw the Inquisitions that killed a whole race out of existence. No Aztecs or Mayans around?

The compulsive conversion is a Catholic trademark, and the main logo of the inquisitions. Or is the blood and the mass murders the Church did once, and got recorded by mankind in history books before nightmares; a lie?

The boot? The Iron Maiden? The Rack?
The Catholic Church IS a torture room. History is with me.

[Catholic_Lady]

The doctrines come from assembling the information we have in the Bible into a systematic, internally consistent framework.

And how was the bible assembled?

---

I also wanted to discuss this specifically. Because I do very much see it as still being a chance/unlucky thing.

Let's just be reasonable for a second here. If you were raised a Muslim, believed in salvation through Islam, believed in Mohammed, etc etc... how would you know that you had a moral obligation to examine Christianity in the first place?? How would you be like "Well, I was taught by my parents and everyone I love and trust that Islam is the way to salvation... but someone mentioned something about some Jesus guy today and said I need to be Christian to be saved. Yikes! I better look into it." I mean, do we, as Christians, feel like we have a moral obligation to look into other religions because people of those religions also say you need to be saved through their own prophet? If you and I were raised Muslim chances are we'd both be Muslim today lol.

We all have a moral obligation to seek truth, yes, but we can't discount the fact that people can make honest mistakes and that upbringing and other factors which are outside their control doesn't play a role in their conclusion of the truth.

So going purely by whether or not you've heard of Jesus still seems unfair and unlucky if you happened to be born into a different faith.

CL, can you point that mirror in other directions and realize that things operate the same way, regardless of which religion you're looking at?... Even yours.
Were you lucky to be born in a society that got the right one?... or also unlucky, like all others?
What are the odds?

Yeah, I think I was very lucky. Obviously I know everyone from their own faith feels the same way though.

I have good reasons for believing what I do, but if I was from another part of the world and raised in another faith, I'm not sure that I would have gone through the effort of coming across it and been able to be completely objective/open minded. Of course I'd like to think I would, but realistically I don't think I'm better than most people, and most people dont.

[Succubus]

............my point is that it seems like almost always it's a matter of luck that you were born into the "right" circumstances, if another circumstance would have led you to eternal damnation.

Lucky, lucky CL.  

Oh, my God.  

After all the damage that religions did to human race now we have to hear that good luck or bad luck play a role into our spiritual or damned life as well.  

Where's Little Rik? What have you done with his body?

[The Grand Nudger]

Questioning the savagery of Catholics and Christians in general in wars, is quite a breach to all historical records; written by Christians before Muslims.

LOL...a breach for whom?  The west has noted the savagery of jesusism for centuries.  We noticed it even when we were still rabid jesusists...but it got compartmentalized.  Those Other Jesusists™ are savage, but we're the real deal.  Catholicism, in particular, has been a target of this sort of comedy gold for longer than any other sect.

Sound familiar?