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(February 23, 2018 at 3:17 am)Banned Wrote: The right understanding of the scriptures has to be based on correct English reading and comprehension.
And "I do not believe that people can actually come back from the dead" is a valid sentence in English.
Quote:To me this sentence says you don't believe in the resurrection, but if I were incapable of reading English or I lied, I would say that means you believe people can actually come back from the dead, or that means that you have actually seen someone come back from the dead, or worse you have been there and done it.
I don't care too much whether people believe what the Bible says, but I hate it when they make false claims about what it says.
This is going on all the time by professed believers and non believers.
If the scriptures contain what appears to be mythological nonsense, it is correct to say that the scriptures appear to be mythology.
If the scriptures contain what appear to be immoral divine behaviours or unconscionable commands, then commenting on those issues is acceptable.
(February 23, 2018 at 10:02 am)Astreja Wrote: Well, I've experienced it. My inter-hemisphere communication in my brain is such that if one part of my mind tries to assert something that violates what I know of reality, the other half of the brain refuses to play along and refuses to suspend disbelief. I've tried in the past to have religious faith. It fails every time because I'm fully aware that I'm attempting to lie to myself.
I don't even try anymore, and have not tried for some years now.
I remember attending an Anglican church when I was about 12, and like yourself - it did not appeal to my intellect or reasoning.
I couldn't explain it at the time, but there was an unspoken agenda to have the audience subservient to the cloak behind the altar. I did not buy it.
I am not saying that the SDA church was all OK, it was laboriously dry at times, but occasionally it resonated with me.
Now I know that while most religions claim to worship the Creator, they don't have a word to say about creation, the thing studied by science. Which is really odd, if not negligent. I have yet to hear a sermon on it.
But I wouldn't venture to say that people did not have a proven relationship with God, as I have seen, heard and personally experienced a lot of that.
(February 23, 2018 at 3:17 am)Banned Wrote: The right understanding of the scriptures has to be based on correct English reading and comprehension.
And "I do not believe that people can actually come back from the dead" is a valid sentence in English.
Quote:To me this sentence says you don't believe in the resurrection, but if I were incapable of reading English or I lied, I would say that means you believe people can actually come back from the dead, or that means that you have actually seen someone come back from the dead, or worse you have been there and done it.
I don't care too much whether people believe what the Bible says, but I hate it when they make false claims about what it says.
This is going on all the time by professed believers and non believers.
If you don’t care what people think of the Bible, then what reason is there, in your own mind, for someone to believe you when you say that a god exists?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
February 23, 2018 at 4:41 pm (This post was last modified: February 23, 2018 at 5:11 pm by Banned.)
(February 23, 2018 at 4:24 pm)Astreja Wrote: If the scriptures contain what appears to be mythological nonsense, it is correct to say that the scriptures appear to be mythology.
If the scriptures contain what appear to be immoral divine behaviours or unconscionable commands, then commenting on those issues is acceptable.
It's as simple as that.
I agree.
But it can be misread, we don't need any proof of that.
If it speaks about the resurrection, and you don't agree with that, that's fine.
Religions say it means that you have an immortal counterpart, a ghost or whatever, that leaves the body upon death.
If it's not enough to meddle with your life, they have to own the grave as well.
Did you know that Cathedrals have containers with the remains of the dead in them?
They even have remains under the altar or pulpit. That's standard practice.
(February 23, 2018 at 4:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If you don’t care what people think of the Bible, then what reason is there, in your own mind, for someone to believe you when you say that a god exists?
I can't remember asking people to believe me, but to not misquote or lie about what the Bible says. I am not that concerned about whether they believe what's written in it or not, because it's none of my business.
Most of the complaints against God and the Bible come from ignorance about what it teaches. It's only a reflection of false religions. I expect strong critics of the Bible to have an accurate knowledge of it.
You've asked the question before - why should you and I believe in the Bible, or something along that line.
I haven't been able to answer that, because I don't "believe" things, I live by my natural senses.
If I see a piece of new machinery, I wonder how it works and figure it out. Belief doesn't enter into it.
I don't have a problem with reasoning.
If I see an airliner fly by, I don't imagine that nobody designed it, and that it grew on a factory wall.
I know there's a lot of people who would like me to believe that, but I don't, because I make things myself.
But if I were really unskilled and brain dead, I would believe that the aircraft assembled itself under an abandoned warehouse.
(February 23, 2018 at 4:24 pm)Astreja Wrote: If the scriptures contain what appears to be mythological nonsense, it is correct to say that the scriptures appear to be mythology.
If the scriptures contain what appear to be immoral divine behaviours or unconscionable commands, then commenting on those issues is acceptable.
It's as simple as that.
I agree.
But it can be misread, we don't need any proof of that.
If it speaks about the resurrection, and you don't agree with that, that's fine.
Religions say it means that you have an immortal counterpart, a ghost or whatever, that leaves the body upon death.
If it's not enough to meddle with your life, they have to own the grave as well.
Did you know that Cathedrals have containers with the remains of the dead in them?
They even have remains under the altar or pulpit. That's standard practice.
(February 23, 2018 at 4:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If you don’t care what people think of the Bible, then what reason is there, in your own mind, for someone to believe you when you say that a god exists?
I can't remember asking people to believe me, but to not misquote or lie about what the Bible says. I am not that concerned about whether they believe what's written in it or not, because it's none of my business.
Most of the complaints against God and the Bible come from ignorance about what it teaches. It's only a reflection of false religions. I expect strong critics of the Bible to have an accurate knowledge of it.
You've asked the question before - why should you and I believe in the Bible, or something along that line.
I haven't been able to answer that, because I don't "believe" things, I live by my natural senses.
If I see a piece of new machinery, I wonder how it works and figure it out. Belief doesn't enter into it.
I don't have a problem with reasoning.
If I see an airliner fly by, I don't imagine that nobody designed it, and that it grew on a factory wall.
I know there's a lot of people who would like me to believe that, but I don't, because I make things myself.
But if I were really unskilled and brain dead, I would believe that the aircraft assembled itself under an abandoned warehouse.
If this world is a designed world, then what would a world that was not designed look like, you think?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
(February 23, 2018 at 4:41 pm)Banned Wrote: I don't have a problem with reasoning.
If I see an airliner fly by, I don't imagine that nobody designed it, and that it grew on a factory wall.
I know there's a lot of people who would like me to believe that, but I don't, because I make things myself.
But if I were really unskilled and brain dead, I would believe that the aircraft assembled itself under an abandoned warehouse.
So you understand that things humans manufacture are designed. Congratulations, I guess. *shrug*
I'm ready to be amazed. Explain why your human artifact analogy applies to the natural world.
February 23, 2018 at 6:19 pm (This post was last modified: February 23, 2018 at 6:20 pm by drfuzzy.)
(February 23, 2018 at 4:41 pm)Banned Wrote:
(February 23, 2018 at 4:24 pm)Astreja Wrote: If the scriptures contain what appears to be mythological nonsense, it is correct to say that the scriptures appear to be mythology.
If the scriptures contain what appear to be immoral divine behaviours or unconscionable commands, then commenting on those issues is acceptable.
It's as simple as that.
I agree.
But it can be misread, we don't need any proof of that.
If it speaks about the resurrection, and you don't agree with that, that's fine.
Religions say it means that you have an immortal counterpart, a ghost or whatever, that leaves the body upon death.
If it's not enough to meddle with your life, they have to own the grave as well.
Did you know that Cathedrals have containers with the remains of the dead in them?
They even have remains under the altar or pulpit. That's standard practice.
(February 23, 2018 at 4:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If you don’t care what people think of the Bible, then what reason is there, in your own mind, for someone to believe you when you say that a god exists?
Quote:I can't remember asking people to believe me, but to not misquote or lie about what the Bible says. I am not that concerned about whether they believe what's written in it or not, because it's none of my business.
Most of the complaints against God and the Bible come from ignorance about what it teaches. It's only a reflection of false religions. I expect strong critics of the Bible to have an accurate knowledge of it.
You've asked the question before - why should you and I believe in the Bible, or something along that line.
I haven't been able to answer that, because I don't "believe" things, I live by my natural senses.
If I see a piece of new machinery, I wonder how it works and figure it out. Belief doesn't enter into it.
I don't have a problem with reasoning.
If I see an airliner fly by, I don't imagine that nobody designed it, and that it grew on a factory wall.
I know there's a lot of people who would like me to believe that, but I don't, because I make things myself.
But if I were really unskilled and brain dead, I would believe that the aircraft assembled itself under an abandoned warehouse.
Again, if you don't care what people believe or what they think of the Bible . . . why bother to argue your interpretation at all? Particularly to a group of people who do not believe in the existence of any gods?
You said that it can be mis-read. Well, that's pretty damned obvious. Even Wikipedia has a list of Christian sects/denominations that is absolutely mind-boggling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ominations And after the "historical groups" section, they were all reading the same book - arguments re: translations aside. Thousands of groups that can't agree about what the silly book says, and many have a history of killing other groups who disagree with their "interpretation", and their imaginary sky-god has never given any indication that ANY one of the groups has it right or wrong. Not a single one of these groups has any history of being happier or healthier than any other group, either.
We tend to post Bible verses to theists who come here to preach. -- Without interpretation. And so often we get the response "but it's out of context" or "it doesn't say what you think it says" because the Christian witch doctors have gotten away with telling people lies for thousands of years. For most of the Church's history (any church) the con-men benefited from illiterate congregations. Many still have congregations trained to listen to fantasies and pontifications instead of reading for themselves.
You have a fantasy deity without the tiniest shred of real proof of its existence. You have a cobbled-together book of fairy tales and a million interpretations of what people think it says. Why the hell should we care if an SDA says that the Pentecostals are a "false religion" and the Pentecostals say that the Methodists "don't pray right"? It's all like a bunch of Trekkies arguing over the hidden meanings in Episode 21 and whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
February 23, 2018 at 7:25 pm (This post was last modified: February 23, 2018 at 8:02 pm by Banned.)
(February 23, 2018 at 5:56 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If this world is a designed world, then what would a world that was not designed look like, you think?
Like some of the city planing we have ? !
(February 23, 2018 at 6:19 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Again, if you don't care what people believe or what they think of the Bible . . . why bother to argue your interpretation at all? Particularly to a group of people who do not believe in the existence of any gods?
You said that it can be mis-read. Well, that's pretty damned obvious. Even Wikipedia has a list of Christian sects/denominations that is absolutely mind-boggling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ominations And after the "historical groups" section, they were all reading the same book - arguments re: translations aside. Thousands of groups that can't agree about what the silly book says, and many have a history of killing other groups who disagree with their "interpretation", and their imaginary sky-god has never given any indication that ANY one of the groups has it right or wrong. Not a single one of these groups has any history of being happier or healthier than any other group, either.
We tend to post Bible verses to theists who come here to preach. -- Without interpretation. And so often we get the response "but it's out of context" or "it doesn't say what you think it says" because the Christian witch doctors have gotten away with telling people lies for thousands of years. For most of the Church's history (any church) the con-men benefited from illiterate congregations. Many still have congregations trained to listen to fantasies and pontifications instead of reading for themselves.
You have a fantasy deity without the tiniest shred of real proof of its existence. You have a cobbled-together book of fairy tales and a million interpretations of what people think it says. Why the hell should we care if an SDA says that the Pentecostals are a "false religion" and the Pentecostals say that the Methodists "don't pray right"? It's all like a bunch of Trekkies arguing over the hidden meanings in Episode 21 and whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain.
Being bought up in a home of contradictions and confusion, just made me all the more determined to find the truth about what was going on.
I applied the same strategies when confronted with the obvious contradictions within religions.
Rebellion has its place and time, but it's usually a desperate and temporary move.
(February 23, 2018 at 6:02 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: So you understand that things humans manufacture are designed. Congratulations, I guess. *shrug*
I'm ready to be amazed. Explain why your human artifact analogy applies to the natural world.
So you are an intelligent and amazing creature, and it took about nine months to develop you - some will try and convince you it took about 7 millions years?
And if there was a slightest mistake at any stage, you might have been born deformed or not at all.
How many stages of development are there in nine months?
About 6,324,000 and multiply that by the number of relationships between each cell, an average of about 4,100,000,000,000. at each stage, and multiply that again by the number of relationships from one stage to the next.
Every stage is crucial.
Are there any corrections made during all these stages, for any glitches?
Yes. About 1.63 to the power of 24. Which is about 0.001 % of the above calculations.
Nature is constantly being corrected on all levels, including the molecular structures. That scenario did not exist when the world was first created - it was perfect and had no dysfunctions on any level.
What we have today is malfunctioning nature. All of the developments and adaptations are usually compensatory moves to survive.
If this world is a designed world, then what would a world that was not designed look like, you think?
ike some of the city planing we have ? !
(February 23, 2018 at 6:19 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Again, if you don't care what people believe or what they think of the Bible . . . why bother to argue your interpretation at all? Particularly to a group of people who do not believe in the existence of any gods?
You said that it can be mis-read. Well, that's pretty damned obvious. Even Wikipedia has a list of Christian sects/denominations that is absolutely mind-boggling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ominations And after the "historical groups" section, they were all reading the same book - arguments re: translations aside. Thousands of groups that can't agree about what the silly book says, and many have a history of killing other groups who disagree with their "interpretation", and their imaginary sky-god has never given any indication that ANY one of the groups has it right or wrong. Not a single one of these groups has any history of being happier or healthier than any other group, either.
We tend to post Bible verses to theists who come here to preach. -- Without interpretation. And so often we get the response "but it's out of context" or "it doesn't say what you think it says" because the Christian witch doctors have gotten away with telling people lies for thousands of years. For most of the Church's history (any church) the con-men benefited from illiterate congregations. Many still have congregations trained to listen to fantasies and pontifications instead of reading for themselves.
You have a fantasy deity without the tiniest shred of real proof of its existence. You have a cobbled-together book of fairy tales and a million interpretations of what people think it says. Why the hell should we care if an SDA says that the Pentecostals are a "false religion" and the Pentecostals say that the Methodists "don't pray right"? It's all like a bunch of Trekkies arguing over the hidden meanings in Episode 21 and whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain.
Quote:Being bought up in a home of contradictions and confusion, just made me all the more determined to find the truth about what was going on.
I applied the same strategies when confronted with the obvious contradictions within religions.
Rebellion has its place and time, but it's usually a desperate and temporary move.
(February 23, 2018 at 6:02 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:
So you understand that things humans manufacture are designed. Congratulations, I guess. *shrug*
I'm ready to be amazed. Explain why your human artifact analogy applies to the natural world.
So you are an intelligent and amazing creature, and it took about nine months to develop you - some will try and convince you it took about 7 millions years?
And if there was a slightest mistake at any stage, you might have been born deformed or not at all.
How many stages of development are there in nine months?
About 6,324,000 and multiply that by the number of relationships between each cell, an average of about 4,100,000,000,000. at each stage, and multiply that again by the number of relationships from one stage to the next.
Every stage is crucial.
Are there any corrections made during all these stages, for any glitches?
Yes. About 1.63 to the power of 24. Which is about 0.001 % of the above calculations.
Nature is constantly being corrected on all levels, including the molecular structures. That scenario did not exist when the world was first created - it was perfect and had no dysfunctions on any level.
What we have today is malfunctioning nature. All of the developments and adaptations are usually compensatory moves to survive.
Well, that was a rather spectacular dodge. You didn't even come close to answering the question.
So you were brought up in a home of contradictions and confusion. Yay. You're a normal member of the human race.
You were determined to find the truth? Kudos. Our path is much the same. Yippee skip.
And then it diverges. I come to this forum to share my atheist experiences with other atheists. I don't go to Christian fora and tell them I think that ____ got it all wrong.
You studied religions and apparently decided that YOUR interpretation is right and that you need to tell the poor deluded unbelievers ALL about it. I studied religions and decided that they were all crap and that all preachers were lying snake-oil salesmen.
The question is "why are you here"? You know that we think your wholly babble is only worth using for toilet paper and your god doesn't exist, and that you have absolutely nothing to offer that we could possibly consider to be proof.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(February 23, 2018 at 11:37 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: The question is "why are you here"? You know that we think your wholly babble is only worth using for toilet paper and your god doesn't exist, and that you have absolutely nothing to offer that we could possibly consider to be proof.
I've never conversed with Atheists on many different subjects, and I expect them to have some interesting views, like the responses so far.
I am not certain that everybody rejects what I think, and it's not that important for me to prove what I think, because I want to know your ideas and views, and I wouldn't say that you all think the same.
