The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians

[Fake Messiah]

Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

It was all because Christians copied Roman gods and theology, or at least Roman Catholics did because other Christians sects who found it to be bullshit were put down and all Christian denominations we have now sprouted from Roman Christians.
So like Romans used to worship a mother goddess Cybele, so much that they couldn't just let it go, they made Jesus' mother into another Cybele (although Jesus damned his own mother). There is a BBC documentary where they talk about this Mary/ Cybele thing and it's at the very beginning although it then stretches in cropped segments





So they did with St. Peter who gained the same place of worship (Vatican) as was with god Janus, god of doors who held keys to heaven.


Romans also had Capitoline Triad which was a group of three deities who were worshiped in ancient Roman religion (Jupiter, Juno and Minerva) which they took from other religions, like Egyptians. They loved it and wanted to keep it in new religion and while it made sense in polytheistic religion it didn't make any in monotheistic one and to no wonder Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.

[vulcanlogician]

...although Jesus damned his own mother...

Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.

This is the first I've heard of any Mary-cursing/damning. What is this all about?

[The Grand Nudger]

@Fake

That's the weakness of a borrowed ladder.  In claiming authority from an older tradition and from then current social mores, institutions, and philosophies..they saddled themselves with the baggage and created discordance in the mash up.  The doctrine we see (then and today) is a result of trying to round the edges of that mishapen square to create an unbroken circle. A unity, of sorts, which is actually what the root word of "catholicsm" means...amusingly enough.  It's an ongoing process, and it will be until each christian cult finally divorces itself from the weight and trappings of the past.

It's been attmpted, both historically and in recent and living memory, thusfar it's failed. Mere christianity, just jesus, "non religious" and non-denom christianities..etc. They still need the ladder, apparently.

[Huggy Bear]

Huggy, that's fine. You're not a Trinitarian, so it's a waste of time arguing about something neither you nor I believe in. You can make a new thread for what you're arguing about.

Then what is the purpose of your op? Trolling? I've just shown that the Trinitarian doctrine can't be supported scripturally, yet you ignore that and continue to troll.

Do you not realize that the early Christian were devout Jews that still kept the law? No Jew would ever accept Three separate Gods, that would break the first commandment. They have always worshipped one God

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

It was all because Christians copied Roman gods and theology, or at least Roman Catholics did because other Christians sects who found it to be bullshit were put down and all Christian denominations we have now sprouted from Roman Christians.
So like Romans used to worship a mother goddess Cybele, so much that they couldn't just let it go, they made Jesus' mother into another Cybele (although Jesus damned his own mother). There is a BBC documentary where they talk about this Mary/ Cybele thing and it's at the very beginning although it then stretches in cropped segments





So they did with St. Peter who gained the same place of worship (Vatican) as was with god Janus, god of doors who held keys to heaven.


Romans also had Capitoline Triad which was a group of three deities who were worshiped in ancient Roman religion (Jupiter, Juno and Minerva) which they took from other religions, like Egyptians. They loved it and wanted to keep it in new religion and while it made sense in polytheistic religion it didn't make any in monotheistic one and to no wonder Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.

Thanks for the information.  

But the trinity is mentioned in Matthew 28:19 (NOG) = "So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028:19

John 14:26 (NKJV) = 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2014:26

Is being baptized in the name of Yeshua good enough or do you need something more?

Acts 8:15-17 (NOG) = "15 Peter and John went to Samaria and prayed that the Samaritans would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (Before this the Holy Spirit had not come to any of the Samaritans. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Yeshua.) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit."

[GrandizerII]

The authority on the Christian faith thus speaketh, the one who believes Jesus is only a part of God.


Not that Wikipedia is the go-to source for a complicated topic like this, but nevertheless, here's what the next paragraph which you did not quote says:


Note the bold. This is contrary to what you believe. If each Person of God is just a part of God, then none of them are God, whole and entire.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself (again, note the bold):


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...s2c1p2.htm

Did it occur to you that you had to skip over phrase after phrase that says what you don't want it to say to get to one you could construe as support. Note the RED. At the tail end of all these clear statements (literally) that God is one thing in three persons, only then do both references include phrases to emphasize that God is inseparable into the three parts. That is all you are seeing here--God is inseparable and not complete without the three persons--two sides of the same coin.  

---

Where? Are we reading the same thing? Jesus is true God, not a part of the true God.

Yes, 'consubstantial' means of one substance with the Father (or in your version of the creed: "One in Being"). Now, if we say something shares the same substance (or is "one in being") with something else, we say that the first thing, along with the second thing are part of something--in this case God.

Sigh ... if God is a Being rather than some abstract collective, then nothing changes in my argument. Of course I'm aware that God, in the context of the Trinity, is a Being as opposed to a Person. But a Being is still a "concrete" entity, not an abstract (or mere nature). God is supposed to be a real thing, not just a name/title. I'm not obliged to adhere to your personal interpretation of the doctrine, especially since nowhere in these official texts does it say each Person of God is merely a part of God.

---

Huggy, that's fine. You're not a Trinitarian, so it's a waste of time arguing about something neither you nor I believe in. You can make a new thread for what you're arguing about.

Then what is the purpose of your op? Trolling? I've just shown that the Trinitarian doctrine can't be supported scripturally, yet you ignore that and continue to troll.

Do you not realize that the early Christian were devout Jews that still kept the law? No Jew would ever accept Three separate Gods, that would break the first commandment. They have always worshipped one God

Purpose is to challenge the Trinitarian Christians. That's not trolling, is it?

I agree with you. It's not Scripturally supported. The early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, sure.

Since I agree with you here, why do you want me to argue with you? Attention?

[Fake Messiah]

...although Jesus damned his own mother...

Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.

This is the first I've heard of any Mary-cursing/damning. What is this all about?

In Mark 3:31-34 Jesus' mother and brothers thought he was possessed by demons. They even journeyed from Nazareth to Capernaum to take him away to a loony bin. Then Jesus famously scorned family ties. He refused to let his family in the house, asking instead, "Who are my mother and my brothers?" Then, pointing to his followers, he exclaimed, "Here are my mother and my brothers!"

Thanks for the information.  

But the trinity is mentioned in Matthew 28:19 (NOG) = "So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028:19

John 14:26 (NKJV) = 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2014:26

Is being baptized in the name of Yeshua good enough or do you need something more?

Acts 8:15-17 (NOG) = "15 Peter and John went to Samaria and prayed that the Samaritans would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (Before this the Holy Spirit had not come to any of the Samaritans. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Yeshua.) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit."

I meant they don't call it Trinity.

[Haipule]

Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

The "Trinity" is theological and not biblical. It is ridiculous and illogical. 100 divided by 3 = 33.3. 3 x 33.3 is 99.9

In John 1:1 the Greek preposition 'pros', mistranslated "with", governing the accusative case, when the motion is complete, means: affix, attach, connect, mount, etc.

John therefore is connecting God and the Word as one. The Word made everything and then become flesh in the person of Jesus in verse 14.

Jesus Himself said, "I and the Father are one". He also said, "The one having been seeing Me have been seeing the Father.' "How is it you ask ME 'show to us the Father?'"

Father means the head of the house. Paul said that we are His house, "Who's house you-all are".

Jesus is my God, my Father, Deliverer, Lord, Shepherd and friend.

Jesus never existed before He was born. In Colossians 1, Jesus establishes all authority. The Greek word is ktisis--to found/establish. It does not say He "created" anything. Therefore, theophany's are a ridiculous theology.

The so called "Holy Spirit" is another theological brainfart. 'Spirit' is a transliteration from the Latin spiritus which means breath. The Hebrew word ruwach and the Greek word pneuma(neuter), translated as 'spirit' also mean breath. Figuratively they mean: intellect gleaned from an exterior source. In contrast with psuchO(erroneously translated as 'soul') means: natural or, instinctive intellect.

The word 'holy' is hagion(neuter) and means: pure, undefiled, unpolluted, special, unique, separating a class from a class.

Therefore, when the bible says, "David said in the Holy Spirit" actually means that David said something IN THE BIBLE!

Jesus is both God and man and there is nothing else like Him. "Trinity" is catapult trajectory calculations born from a 2nd century clown named Tertullian.

[vulcanlogician]

Jesus is both God and man and there is nothing else like Him. "Trinity" is catapult trajectory calculations born from a 2nd century clown named Tertullian.

I'm curious, Haipule...

So you are a nontrinitarian/unitarian? But Jesus is divine? Holy spirit is just God's bad breath?

[GrandizerII]

Thanks for the information.  

But the trinity is mentioned in Matthew 28:19 (NOG) = "So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

If I remember correctly, this was added later to the text. So not in the originals.