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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 5:52 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2018 at 5:53 pm by Fake Messiah.)
(January 31, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.
The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.
The Father is fully the one God.
The Son is fully the one God.
The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.
They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?
Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.
Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).
It was all because Christians copied Roman gods and theology, or at least Roman Catholics did because other Christians sects who found it to be bullshit were put down and all Christian denominations we have now sprouted from Roman Christians.
So like Romans used to worship a mother goddess Cybele, so much that they couldn't just let it go, they made Jesus' mother into another Cybele (although Jesus damned his own mother). There is a BBC documentary where they talk about this Mary/ Cybele thing and it's at the very beginning although it then stretches in cropped segments
So they did with St. Peter who gained the same place of worship (Vatican) as was with god Janus, god of doors who held keys to heaven.
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Romans also had Capitoline Triad which was a group of three deities who were worshiped in ancient Roman religion (Jupiter, Juno and Minerva) which they took from other religions, like Egyptians. They loved it and wanted to keep it in new religion and while it made sense in polytheistic religion it didn't make any in monotheistic one and to no wonder Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 5:58 pm
(February 1, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: ...although Jesus damned his own mother...
Just like it doesn't make sense to worship Mary because Jesus cursed her.
This is the first I've heard of any Mary-cursing/damning. What is this all about?
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 6:22 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2018 at 6:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@Fake
That's the weakness of a borrowed ladder. In claiming authority from an older tradition and from then current social mores, institutions, and philosophies..they saddled themselves with the baggage and created discordance in the mash up. The doctrine we see (then and today) is a result of trying to round the edges of that mishapen square to create an unbroken circle. A unity, of sorts, which is actually what the root word of "catholicsm" means...amusingly enough. It's an ongoing process, and it will be until each christian cult finally divorces itself from the weight and trappings of the past.
It's been attmpted, both historically and in recent and living memory, thusfar it's failed. Mere christianity, just jesus, "non religious" and non-denom christianities..etc. They still need the ladder, apparently.
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 6:39 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2018 at 6:40 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(February 1, 2018 at 8:20 am)Grandizer Wrote: Huggy, that's fine. You're not a Trinitarian, so it's a waste of time arguing about something neither you nor I believe in. You can make a new thread for what you're arguing about. Then what is the purpose of your op? Trolling? I've just shown that the Trinitarian doctrine can't be supported scripturally, yet you ignore that and continue to troll.
Do you not realize that the early Christian were devout Jews that still kept the law? No Jew would ever accept Three separate Gods, that would break the first commandment. They have always worshipped one God
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 6:50 pm
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 6:59 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2018 at 7:04 pm by GrandizerII.)
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 7:10 pm
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 7:18 pm
(January 31, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.
The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.
The Father is fully the one God.
The Son is fully the one God.
The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.
They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?
Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.
Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe). The "Trinity" is theological and not biblical. It is ridiculous and illogical. 100 divided by 3 = 33.3. 3 x 33.3 is 99.9
In John 1:1 the Greek preposition 'pros', mistranslated "with", governing the accusative case, when the motion is complete, means: affix, attach, connect, mount, etc.
John therefore is connecting God and the Word as one. The Word made everything and then become flesh in the person of Jesus in verse 14.
Jesus Himself said, "I and the Father are one". He also said, "The one having been seeing Me have been seeing the Father.' "How is it you ask ME 'show to us the Father?'"
Father means the head of the house. Paul said that we are His house, "Who's house you-all are".
Jesus is my God, my Father, Deliverer, Lord, Shepherd and friend.
Jesus never existed before He was born. In Colossians 1, Jesus establishes all authority. The Greek word is ktisis--to found/establish. It does not say He "created" anything. Therefore, theophany's are a ridiculous theology.
The so called "Holy Spirit" is another theological brainfart. 'Spirit' is a transliteration from the Latin spiritus which means breath. The Hebrew word ruwach and the Greek word pneuma(neuter), translated as 'spirit' also mean breath. Figuratively they mean: intellect gleaned from an exterior source. In contrast with psuchO(erroneously translated as 'soul') means: natural or, instinctive intellect.
The word 'holy' is hagion(neuter) and means: pure, undefiled, unpolluted, special, unique, separating a class from a class.
Therefore, when the bible says, "David said in the Holy Spirit" actually means that David said something IN THE BIBLE!
Jesus is both God and man and there is nothing else like Him. "Trinity" is catapult trajectory calculations born from a 2nd century clown named Tertullian.
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 7:24 pm
(February 1, 2018 at 7:18 pm)Haipule Wrote: Jesus is both God and man and there is nothing else like Him. "Trinity" is catapult trajectory calculations born from a 2nd century clown named Tertullian.
I'm curious, Haipule...
So you are a nontrinitarian/unitarian? But Jesus is divine? Holy spirit is just God's bad breath?
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RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 7:29 pm
(February 1, 2018 at 6:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Thanks for the information.
But the trinity is mentioned in Matthew 28:19 (NOG) = "So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If I remember correctly, this was added later to the text. So not in the originals.
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