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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
#21
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
Oh, is that why you choose it?  Good to know.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#22
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 17, 2018 at 10:08 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 8:53 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
 
https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=wRyUWquFHcm4tQXV74XQBw&q=fraud+laws&oq=fraud+laws&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.1003.11584.0.15863.10.10.0.0.0.0.114.1040.3j7.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.1037...0i131k1.0.nCgTyqsYAOA
 
Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.
 
Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.
 
Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.
 
Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.
 
I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.
 
Do you?
 
Regards
DL

This is a poorly thought out question.

1. Who gets to decide what is or is not "fraudulent"? Everyone thinks they got it right and everyone else got it wrong.

2. Even though I agree religion is not required to live life, it isn't going away, especially not by violent means.

Your question is too general and too loaded.

Governments should protect citizens equally regardless of religious beliefs. 

Regulated? Yea sure, but on a case by case basis.

Do you have the right to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Don't see the logic in that but sure. But if that pink unicorn belief lead you to deny medical care to your child and it died because you refused to take it to a doctor, NO! Your ass should put on trial.

Religion should be regulated like anything else yes, but what are you seeking to do and what regulation are you talking about?

The question isn't addressing a specific claim or idea. It is too general.

Would I like to see someone like Benny Hinn locked up and sued? Yes. But does that mean every religion can be or should be outlawed? Not realistic. 

It can only be taken as a case by case issue.

A judge generally goes case by case.

The main regulation and focus in the O.P. is outright lying to people so as to loosen the purse strings.

Fraud, IOWs.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:12 am)Mermaid Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 9:48 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Those that do not lie of course.

That would be the religions that push knowledge and wisdom as compared to some supernatural entity whose existence they have to lie about.

Regards
DL
No such thing.
For your enlightenment, please see the second post above tis one.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:14 am)tjakey Wrote: That's an interesting question for a democracy committed to protecting individual liberty. On the one, if the society is to survive and thrive, social institution like banking, various government entities, and the systems (like voting) that form the foundation for the democracy itself have to be protected. On the other hand just how responsible is society for protecting any individual from being had by a con? Pretty much everyone is vulnerable if the con is sophisticated enough, has enough resources, and can control people's access to information. (I'll suggest the current administration as a good example, with tens of million of Americans being had.) But are we really responsible for protecting every individual from being stupid?

Religion in America is not required. Sure there is family and social pressures, but anyone can walk away from any ideology should they choose. Many members of this forum are examples, and some have lost friends and family as a result of the choice. But do we really want some kind of official sanction of some religions while others are marked as fraud?

I would dearly love to see religions like Christianity and Islam disappear just because people walked away from the nonsense. But I don't know that trying to make that happen by a government decree that they are fundamentally con schemes is a good idea.

Why not?

Do citizens not deserve to live in reality instead of delusion?

"That's an interesting question for a democracy committed to protecting individual liberty."

Liberty is great, but not when it allows fraudsters to liberate our weakest of mind and gullible from their cash.

Our liberty, if it extends that far is not worth shit as it is a heartless liberty that does not care out our weakest and most vulnerable.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:22 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: Just what we need: the government taking steps to legitimize believers' persecution narratives.

Is that really how you see enforcing our fraud laws instead of alloeing open and flagrant fraud?

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:26 am)chimp3 Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 9:48 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Those that do not lie of course.

That would be the religions that push knowledge and wisdom as compared to some supernatural entity whose existence they have to lie about.

Regards
DL
Let's regulate Gnosticism first as a test subject! I am sure the Trinitarians won't mind.

For sure, but first you have to catch one of us in a lie and that is not easy as we do not need to lie as we have no supernatural beliefs to con people into believing.

As to me in a courtroom.

I would love it as then I would get a bonafide lie detector test that would show beyond a doubt that I have sudfered the apotheosis that I have claimed to have had.

There is no other proof, but even that test many would doubt, but it would be a lot more than the Trinitarians have.

Set it up and I am there for that.

That might even be enough for me to start a church. Hell, if you can set it up, I will pay for it.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:46 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 10:08 am)Brian37 Wrote: This is a poorly thought out question.

1. Who gets to decide what is or is not "fraudulent"? Everyone thinks they got it right and everyone else got it wrong.

2. Even though I agree religion is not required to live life, it isn't going away, especially not by violent means.

Your question is too general and too loaded.

Governments should protect citizens equally regardless of religious beliefs. 

Regulated? Yea sure, but on a case by case basis.

Do you have the right to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Don't see the logic in that but sure. But if that pink unicorn belief lead you to deny medical care to your child and it died because you refused to take it to a doctor, NO! Your ass should put on trial.

Religion should be regulated like anything else yes, but what are you seeking to do and what regulation are you talking about?

The question isn't addressing a specific claim or idea. It is too general.

Would I like to see someone like Benny Hinn locked up and sued? Yes. But does that mean every religion can be or should be outlawed? Not realistic. 

It can only be taken as a case by case issue.

If you have ever heard of that show "American Greed" you'd know that or government has busted con artists using religion. It isn't impossible. But you still wont get a 100% religion free society. It still is case by case.

Cons fleece people out of money with fraud without using religion too. IE the fuckface in office. 45 has stiffed contractors, and got sued for his University scam.

I think our laws need to be stronger on all financial fraud regardless of the bait used.

My goal is not a religion free country. Some local churches do a lot of good social work.

I am after the fraudsters and con schemes. Not the non-lying useful religions or atheist churches.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 10:51 am)vorlon13 Wrote: 7th Day Adventist might be a good test case.  Old and New Testaments both agree women cannot instruct men about matters of faith, and Ellen White who started 7DA was a woman.

Should be a slam dunk.

Additionally, their practice of at least trying (but by missing the sunset/sunset standard God set) of actually honoring the Sabbath is an embarrassment to most other faiths.  Best to just erase the 7th Day Adventist  brand.

Sounds like a good start but it might be easier to go after Scientology. Some countries have already banned them and they may be worse than the 7 day crowd.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 6:17 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Other than not giving them a tax exempt status, no. Let them take the money and run.
Many say that, or that they do not have a horse in the race, but they change their tune quick when I ask them if they would have the same reply if their mama sold the farm and gave the cash to the lying con man instead of leaving it in their name as inheritor.

It is easy to ignore someone else getting screwed but it sure hurts when they are the ones getting the bat shoved up from where they were talking out of initially.

Wow. I am getting vulgar. It must be time to hang up my computer. I am less vulgar in the morning.

Regards
DL
Reply
#23
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 20, 2018 at 9:22 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 6:17 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Other than not giving them a tax exempt status, no. Let them take the money and run.
Many say that, or that they do not have a horse in the race, but they change their tune quick when I ask them if they would have the same reply if their mama sold the farm and gave the cash to the lying con man instead of leaving it in their name as inheritor.

It is easy to ignore someone else getting screwed but it sure hurts when they are the ones getting the bat shoved up from where they were talking out of initially.

Wow. I am getting vulgar. It must be time to hang up my computer. I am less vulgar in the morning.

Regards
DL

Why should children expect an inheritance?

You sound like a spoiled brat. Are you a chronic victim?
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
Reply
#24
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 17, 2018 at 7:16 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Peter Popoff is marketing vials of "Miracle Water" on TV. 

https://www.reference.com/food/ingredien...015bd0f63a

The water is captured from a source near Chernobyl and he boasts of miraculous cures and financial gains if you buy a vial of this H2O. Seems this might be a testable claim.

And his con game and abuse of our weakest and most gullible is all ignored.

Nice world we are building eh?

It seems we collectively think that freedom of speech should allow freedom to steal.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 8:21 pm)Succubus Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 7:16 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Peter Popoff is marketing vials of "Miracle Water" on TV. 

https://www.reference.com/food/ingredien...015bd0f63a

The water is captured from a source near Chernobyl and he boasts of miraculous cures and financial gains if you buy a vial of this H2O. Seems this might be a testable claim.

Remember James Randi's takedown of this arsehole.
The fact that Popoff still rakes in money tells you everything you need to know about the devoutly religious, they deserve every shafting they get. It's also a pretty good indicator that attempting to regulate what the wilfully ignorant can and can not believe is an utterly futile proposition.


[/url]

 
I think if you are unfortunate enough to be the victim of fraud, to the point of losing a significant amount, then telling the victim, ---  you deserve the shafting you got, --- is like telling your neighbors that even if they call the authorities after a theft, that nothing will be done to look into a theft. he suffered.
 
I hope your neighbors do not tell you what you would tell them my friend. That would make them poor neighbors and citizens.

Regards
DL

(March 17, 2018 at 9:50 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 6:12 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: There must be divisions within even the one true (according to them) church. When I was there, the "sabbath" was sunset Friday until sunset on Saturday and that church, to the best of my knowledge, still teaches that.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk
https://vimeo.com/25149893

Regards
DL
Reply
#25
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 17, 2018 at 5:20 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 3:45 pm)tjakey Wrote: Good point except, who is the guilty? Where ever the line gets drawn is going to be an arbitrary decision. Most would agree that insider trading on wall street and corporations making fraudulent claims about their products or services would quality. (Current administration and the current Republican party excepted. They apparently thing that such fraud is both good business and good governing.)

How about "Prosperity Doctrine" preachers? Clearly fraud, and they are clearly profiting from that fraud while enjoying tax except status. I think they qualify as well but I'm an atheist so, to be honest, don't have a dog in that fight. (Except for the "tax except" part). Writing a law that makes those Preachers criminals is okay with me but, what if the Prosperity Doctrine preacher actually believes his shtick? After all, it worked for him or her? She (he) is rich, lives in a mansion, and flies around first class on or a personal jet; walking proof that god has blessed them. I don't know any Prosperity Doctrine preachers personally, so I can't say if they are true believers or aware of their con. But I do know other clergy and they all believe that what they teach is true. From my point of view their ideology is no less fraudulent that than of the prosperity preacher, so are they guilty as well? Should anyone raised in a church and payed their tithe, maybe for a decade or more, before they abandoned a religion they found to be false, be allowed to sue to get their money back?

Like I said, anywhere you draw the line is going to be arbitrary.

Quote:Fraud. A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury...Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

Seems rather straight forward to me.  I guess the only question occurs if one is proposing that we extend the definition of fraud such that it covers certain religious claims.  Is that what you are suggesting?
Extending the definition of fraud to cover religious claims would appear to be one way that the government could deter religious confidence schemes. But I'm not suggesting it is a good idea. When it comes to religion, so long as the government doesn't sanction one over the others, I think it best to leave it alone. For most people, most of the time, religion doesn't really do much actual harm.
Reply
#26
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 20, 2018 at 9:20 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh, is that why you choose it?  Good to know.

In part.

Given these times of competing ideologies and belief systems, including atheism, can you think of a better mind set?

If so, share it my friend.

Regards
DL

(March 20, 2018 at 9:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(March 20, 2018 at 9:22 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
Many say that, or that they do not have a horse in the race, but they change their tune quick when I ask them if they would have the same reply if their mama sold the farm and gave the cash to the lying con man instead of leaving it in their name as inheritor.

It is easy to ignore someone else getting screwed but it sure hurts when they are the ones getting the bat shoved up from where they were talking out of initially.

Wow. I am getting vulgar. It must be time to hang up my computer. I am less vulgar in the morning.

Regards
DL

Why should children expect an inheritance?

You sound like a spoiled brat. Are you a chronic victim?

It is not the expectations that should come to mind. It is how an adult will sit back and even let his own mother get robbed without lifting a God damn finger.

Thanks for not getting it. Try thinking like a guy who would have been the 4th generation on that farm.

Never mind.
I will take your mothers address though seeing as how you would not give a damn if I went and defrauded her.

Regards
DL

(March 21, 2018 at 8:31 am)tjakey Wrote:
(March 17, 2018 at 5:20 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Seems rather straight forward to me.  I guess the only question occurs if one is proposing that we extend the definition of fraud such that it covers certain religious claims.  Is that what you are suggesting?
Extending the definition of fraud to cover religious claims would appear to be one way that the government could deter religious confidence schemes. But I'm not suggesting it is a good idea. When it comes to religion, so long as the government doesn't sanction one over the others, I think it best to leave it alone. For most people, most of the time, religion doesn't really do much actual harm.

Wow. Quite the conclusion given 5,000 years of war thanks mostly to religion.

I guess that you have not noticed the homophobia and misogyny that is still rife in the world thanks again, mostly to religions.

I guess that you do not have any gays or women in your family. If you did, they would slap you silly as they have been discriminated against without a just cause by religions forever and are religions longest running victim.

And I have not even mentioned Inquisitions, Jihads and Holy wars.

Regards
DL
Reply
#27
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 21, 2018 at 8:36 am)Greatest I am Wrote:
(March 20, 2018 at 9:20 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh, is that why you choose it?  Good to know.

In part.

Given these times of competing ideologies and belief systems, including atheism, can you think of a better mind set?

If so, share it my friend.

Regards
DL

You do you, but..to me, choosing some religion (or trying to decide which one was The Best Religion™ ) on the basis that it has "esoteric ecumenist leanings" seems absurd.  Why would it even matter whether it did or didn't..and how do you choose between religions in that subset?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#28
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
The snake dude with tiny writing has made a fail thread.
Reply
#29
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 21, 2018 at 9:25 am)Khemikal Wrote:
(March 21, 2018 at 8:36 am)Greatest I am Wrote: In part.

Given these times of competing ideologies and belief systems, including atheism, can you think of a better mind set?

If so, share it my friend.

Regards
DL

You do you, but..to me, choosing some religion (or trying to decide which one was The Best Religion™ ) on the basis that it has "esoteric ecumenist leanings" seems absurd.  Why would it even matter whether it did or didn't..and how do you choose between religions in that subset?
Easy, because being an esoteric ecumenist, I can choose the best rules and laws to live by regardless of the religion or ideology, including atheism, and always end with the best ideology because it takes the best rules regardless of where they come from.

What could possibly be better than that, in terms of mind set?

Regards
DL

(March 21, 2018 at 9:37 am)Hammy Wrote: The snake dude with tiny writing has made a fail thread.

Easy to say when you do not refute anything with an argument against the premise. Go away small minded fool.

Regards
DL
Reply
#30
RE: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
(March 21, 2018 at 9:39 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Easy, because being an esoteric ecumenist, I can choose the best rules and laws to live by regardless of the religion or ideology, including atheism, and always end with the best ideology because it takes the best rules regardless of where they come from.

What could possibly be better than that, in terms of mind set?

Regards
DL
Are you aware that you can do all of that without choosing any religion at all?  

If that's the goal..though, the choice to be a gnostic christian becomes even more mystifying.  Are you entirely sure that you know what gnostic christianity was..........? 

Perhaps you could provide a very brief summary of what the gnostic christian belief set entails, as you see it?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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