Human Reason and Christian Denominations

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe being engaged in the process is more important than getting the answer exactly right.

 I don't recall jesus mentioning anything about participation medals.

[John V]

There's more to the Bible than the red words.

[The Grand Nudger]

I see...so..someone -other- than jesus is empowered to hand out these participation medals? Who might that have been?

[RoadRunner79]

Why would a supernatural being want so many disagreements among his followers and thousands of different factions? The point is that there is no supernatural being making the message more clear and the followers must use their own reason to try to figure out how to properly interpret ancient writings.

Maybe being engaged in the process is more important than getting the answer exactly right.

I think that this is a big part of the faulty assumptions.   That it is not just a bunch of rules that you need to memorize and regurgitate. 

Good post!

[The Grand Nudger]

Now..that's something I specifically remember jesus saying -was- important.

[Joods]

That's your opinion. However,  you have failed to present anything to the contrary. I stand by my statements.

You don't have to present something to the contrary to show that the reasoning, and thus the conclusion does not follow.

So you still aren't willing to present any counter argument other than to tell me that you think I'm wrong for my opinion? That's not presenting anything. You're arguing in circles while not really doing anything to prove your side of the discussion. 

The copies of copies and translations line is old, and quite bad. 

No it isn't. It's a valid statement. 

   For most things of that age, we only have copies (a historian shouldn't be surprised by this).

Provide evidence of this. Otherwise, you are just stating your opinion. Show me studies or comparisons where this happens for "most" things that age, as your claim states. 

  And the errors in the copies of Biblical manuscripts instead of showing that it is ever changing and full of errors, instead shows quite the opposite.  It shows that a vast majority of the discrepancies are things like spelling errors, transposed words, or using a slightly different although equivalent word.   No major doctrine is in question because of the number of copies or errors in those copies.   When someone brings this up, you should ask them for specifics.   What are the errors, and what is the significance?

I've asked you to provide evidence for your side of the discussion. You've failed to do that, twice now. Show me scientific evidence, via the Scientific Method, where these "copies" were mistranslated or had spelling errors or anything else that you are claiming, yet failing to provide links to data for. This is important because it is the crux of the topic of reasoning and why there are literally thousands of differing opinions all within Christianity, yet, there are those among you who refute other Christians. 

If your god were indeed real, there would not be any discrepancies among other Christians. There would be one religion, one denomination of that religion and you would all agree on the meaning of each word in the Bible. A bible, which every denomination uses, yet interprets in their own way. 

It simply doesn't follow that because someone mis-interprets something; that the original was false. 

The problem is that we have yet to see anything "original". Copies and copies and copies of transcripts of other transcripts do not make any of them "original". Plain and simple. 

Atheists I am told don't always agree, are not a hive mind that does not mean that there is not an objective truth to any particular subject. 

Atheists don't always agree because we aren't a group, per say. The ONLY thing we have in common is that we do not believe in a god or gods. Everything else is up for scrutiny. I know you theists like to think that we are a group of people, but we just aren't. 

Why do you think that people should not be able to have differing opinions?

I never said people can't have differing of opinions and you putting words in my mouth is just pathetic. However, when it comes to the claims that Christians make and the rules that they put on other people, but don't bother to adhere to themselves, opinions don't mean much. You can't sit there and say that you follow the infallible word of God when several Christian denominations can't even agree on what that is. If you are all following the same book, then there shouldn't be any differing of opinions.

[RoadRunner79]

You don't have to present something to the contrary to show that the reasoning, and thus the conclusion does not follow.

So you still aren't willing to present any counter argument other than to tell me that you think I'm wrong for my opinion? That's not presenting anything. You're arguing in circles while not really doing anything to prove your side of the discussion. 

The copies of copies and translations line is old, and quite bad. 

No it isn't. It's a valid statement. 

   For most things of that age, we only have copies (a historian shouldn't be surprised by this).

Provide evidence of this. Otherwise, you are just stating your opinion. Show me studies or comparisons where this happens for "most" things that age, as your claim states. 

  And the errors in the copies of Biblical manuscripts instead of showing that it is ever changing and full of errors, instead shows quite the opposite.  It shows that a vast majority of the discrepancies are things like spelling errors, transposed words, or using a slightly different although equivalent word.   No major doctrine is in question because of the number of copies or errors in those copies.   When someone brings this up, you should ask them for specifics.   What are the errors, and what is the significance?

I've asked you to provide evidence for your side of the discussion. You've failed to do that, twice now. Show me scientific evidence, via the Scientific Method, where these "copies" were mistranslated or had spelling errors or anything else that you are claiming, yet failing to provide links to data for. This is important because it is the crux of the topic of reasoning and why there are literally thousands of differing opinions all within Christianity, yet, there are those among you who refute other Christians. 

If your god were indeed real, there would not be any discrepancies among other Christians. There would be one religion, one denomination of that religion and you would all agree on the meaning of each word in the Bible. A bible, which every denomination uses, yet interprets in their own way. 

It simply doesn't follow that because someone mis-interprets something; that the original was false. 

The problem is that we have yet to see anything "original". Copies and copies and copies of transcripts of other transcripts do not make any of them "original". Plain and simple. 

Atheists I am told don't always agree, are not a hive mind that does not mean that there is not an objective truth to any particular subject. 

Atheists don't always agree because we aren't a group, per say. The ONLY thing we have in common is that we do not believe in a god or gods. Everything else is up for scrutiny. I know you theists like to think that we are a group of people, but we just aren't. 

Why do you think that people should not be able to have differing opinions?

I never said people can't have differing of opinions and you putting words in my mouth is just pathetic. However, when it comes to the claims that Christians make and the rules that they put on other people, but don't bother to adhere to themselves, opinions don't mean much. You can't sit there and say that you follow the infallible word of God when several Christian denominations can't even agree on what that is. If you are all following the same book, then there shouldn't be any differing of opinions.

Welll how about you go first, so I know what you are requiring!

[John V]

This is quite simple. If your religion is making the claim that the bible has been translated from translations of translations of copies of copies of copies of original manuscripts (that no one has ever been able to prove exists), then the bible can only be interpreted in one way. And that way would be the way that those who have transcribed the document, intended for it to be read. 

This is nonsensical gibberish. The conclusion in no way follows from the premise, and can be disproved by the observed fact that there are different interpretations of the same passages. We're all a little dumber for having read this.

[Godscreated]

 You throw that out as if there's a contradiction between the two, I do not see it want to give me an explanation.

GC

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Looks like we should defer to the Southern Baptists on this; John 3:16 is clearly the correct one.  Thanx for making me look.  I'll x out the erroneous James verse in my Bibles.




The Bible clearly teaches that all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that the penalty for sin is eternal death. However, God by his grace has provided a way for sin to be forgiven, hell avoided and heaven gained. That way is faith in his Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23).
Salvation, according to the Bible, is solely by grace and faith, not by human effort or works (Ephesians 2:8-9). While not denying the value of good works, throughout our history Baptists have proclaimed the truth that salvation is only by grace through faith.

 Both are correct and taught in the Southern Baptist Churches, we deny no scriptures. Here's the answer you should have come up with, man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ (by the way there is a ton to have faith in) and by his works we are showing our faith and proving we believe, it is as simple as that. The SBC is correct that only faith saves through the grace of God, no one can work their way into heaven, that is an impossibility. Works demonstrates our faith in Christ, do you even know what kind of works are being reported by James.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

What happened to the blessing of the merciful? Is jesus void where prohibited or something?