Best Theistic Arguments

[surreptitious57]

You cannot be dead if you have only had a near death experience because nearly being dead and actually being dead are not the same

No NDE can be scientifically investigated as it is only a single person interpretation so there is no objective means of determining its claim

And all of science is physical because it is the study of observable phenomena and nothing else

There are a lot of fools that really believe that physical science is the panacea for all real knowledge
Unfortunately for these fools that is not the case

Everything in this universe move and change all the time
Physical science try his best to follow these changes and that is ok but that is not enough because not everything can be understood by this science

In the meantime please note that as the consciousness leave the body that is death so people who saw their body from above saw their dead body
You cant be alive without your consciousness

For atheists must be very very hard to digest the fact that life can come back in a lifeless body and life pop up once again
It would wreck a life time of beliefs

Science is not a panacea for anything but simply a methodology for understanding observable phenomena. Not everything can be
understood by it as that would be an absolute knowledge claim. Science is inductive not deductive so it cannot make such a claim

There is no absolutely no evidence that consciousness leaves the body after death. And anyone
who experiences an NDE is still alive and what they are apparently seeing is imaginary not real

You can be alive without consciousness and it happens all of the time and it is known as sleep

I have no problem accepting anything as long as there is evidence for it but I will not believe in anything
I used to have beliefs but no longer do. Only things that I either know or think are true and nothing else

[snowtracks]

The Universe had a beginning, therefore God.

Yes, we can put the center at any point and physics works the same.
I don't understand what you mean by "where the information is"... which information? Why is information not elsewhere, too?
I wouldn't be surprised if life had originated elsewhere in the Universe... and, with it, other intelligent life forms, capable of dealing with information.

*He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Why do you guys always trot out this "saved" business?
Saved from what?

Boy oh boy, your guy wrote a literary triumph* (as far as it goes) about the information, so what don't you understand?


*Pale Blue Dot, Carl Sagan - That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.

[pocaracas]

Yes, we can put the center at any point and physics works the same.
I don't understand what you mean by "where the information is"... which information? Why is information not elsewhere, too?
I wouldn't be surprised if life had originated elsewhere in the Universe... and, with it, other intelligent life forms, capable of dealing with information.


Why do you guys always trot out this "saved" business?
Saved from what?

Boy oh boy, your guy wrote a literary triumph* (as far as it goes) about the information, so what don't you understand?


*Pale Blue Dot, Carl Sagan - That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.

Ah... Your concept of information is somewhat different from mine...

[The Grand Nudger]

WB Snow.....still grasping at any straw to perpetuate your silly belief?

[Little Rik]

There are a lot of fools that really believe that physical science is the panacea for all real knowledge
Unfortunately for these fools that is not the case

Everything in this universe move and change all the time
Physical science try his best to follow these changes and that is ok but that is not enough because not everything can be understood by this science

In the meantime please note that as the consciousness leave the body that is death so people who saw their body from above saw their dead body
You cant be alive without your consciousness

For atheists must be very very hard to digest the fact that life can come back in a lifeless body and life pop up once again
It would wreck a life time of beliefs

Science is not a panacea for anything but simply a methodology for understanding observable phenomena. Not everything can be
understood by it as that would be an absolute knowledge claim. Science is inductive not deductive so it cannot make such a claim

There is no absolutely no evidence that consciousness leaves the body after death. And anyone
who experiences an NDE is still alive and what they are apparently seeing is imaginary not real

Still alive despite that doctors declare the cheap dead?
Are you more knowledgeable than a doctor?
Cut the trifle-nonsense son.  

You can be alive without consciousness and it happens all of the time and it is known as sleep

Wrong again Surr.

That is a load of BS.
Once the driver has left the vehicle the vehicle can not do anything.  
When you sleep the body keep on carrying on with life.
The blood keep on moving in the body, the cells are alive so in this case the consciousness is still inside the body-brain but when you have an NDE the blood stop flowing and the cell slowly die.  

I have no problem accepting anything as long as there is evidence for it but I will not believe in anything
I used to have beliefs but no longer do. Only things that I either know or think are true and nothing else

Don't you worry Surr.
Maybe one day you may become a doctor or an expert surgeon so you will better understand how the body-brain works.  
Is never too late to learn.  

[Little Rik]

[surreptitious57]

Science is not a panacea for anything but simply a methodology for understanding observable phenomena. Not everything can be
understood by it as that would be an absolute knowledge claim. Science is inductive not deductive so it cannot make such a claim

There is no absolutely no evidence that consciousness leaves the body after death. And anyone
who experiences an NDE is still alive and what they are apparently seeing is imaginary not real

Still alive despite that doctors declare the chap dead?
Are you more knowledgeable than a doctor?

I have no problem accepting anything as long as there is evidence for it but I will not believe in anything
I used to have beliefs but no longer do. Only things that I either know or think are true and nothing else

Maybe one day you may become a doctor or an expert surgeon so you will better understand how the body - brain works

An NDE is not death even if it has been declared so by a doctor
Physicians are prone to error just the same as everyone else is

Understanding how the body - brain works does not require any belief but knowledge
That is because the acquisition of such knowledge is how science actually progresses

[Angrboda]

[Little Rik]

1) I didn't say that inanimate matter is conscious.
I rather say that matter has got consciousness or it is made of consciousness and this consciousness is in a latent form which means that matter can not be aware of who she is.

To say ............Inanimate matter is conscious.......is like to say that matter can express herself which is not the case.

The stupidity lies in the original ideas, not my representation of them.  There is no difference between saying that matter "has got consciousness" and that matter "is conscious."  Moreover, since you yourself have said that consciousness is an abstract, and therefore non-physical, you are saying that the physical is made up of the non-physical, a contradiction.  It's more a problem that your ideas are filled with metaphysical inconsistency and error.  Wittgenstein has said that most philosophical problems are not problems of philosophy but problems of language.  Your moronic dogmas are a case in point.  You'd do well to heed Wittgenstein's words and pull your head out of your ass before you drown in your own shit.

Wrong again yog.  


You can have something but you may not be aware of.
That is what matter have.
Being made of the same factors that are in all other form of life matter got to have consciousness that however doesn't mean that she is aware of.
Awareness come after evolution take place and because matter hasn't yet gone through the evolution process is obvious that she does not have any awareness of what she is.  

(more replies as the time allow)

[Little Rik]

Also vibrations like everything in this universe has life in it.
Unlike matter which can not express herself because she reach the very bottom of creation vibrations express themselves with the movement and movement means life.
If on the other hand you may believe that this movement is caused by the creator then you can well kiss goodby to all atheistic ideas.
In any case you fail badly.

Motion by itself is not evidence that vibrations are alive, both as the motion may be caused by something independent of the vibration, such as a God, or motion may simply be an intrinsic feature of these vibrations without need for any life.  You of course realize that vibration simply refers to a periodic aspect in the mathematical modeling of field interactions and not actual physical motion of course?  Of course you don't.  Regardless, my consciousness doesn't jiggle in my head.  Does yours?  If so, perhaps we have discovered the problem.....  Life is defined variously but no definition I have read simply says, "motion."  Motion is a property both of things known to be alive and not.  If you simply define everything as being alive, you've suspended the role of motion in your argument and have simply done an end run around the meaning of words.  See above about your use of language.

Suppose for a sec. that motion is not enough to say that vibrations are alive or not.
Now let us add something to this motion.
Let us add the fact that the bodies in which these vibrations exist are capable of giving new life.
So this plus motion is a clear evidence that vibrations are alive.

FAIL ONCE AGAIN DARL.
 

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3) Energy - consciousness are the two sides of the same sheet.
One can not exist without the other.
Also energy move so like vibrations must have life in it.
The atheist idea that some sort of energy within the universe keep the system going and going is void of any evidence while the idea that energy has life in it make 100% sense.
Physical science sooner or later will come to this conclusion.

Promises of future discovery is not evidence.  This consciousness and energy being two sides of the same sheet is taken straight from the writings of Sarkar without any justification on its own.  From Sarkar's lips to your lips, without any thought or reason intervening.  That is what is called dogma, and is not justification for belief.  If you'd care to explain why Sarkar believes it, by all means do so.  Otherwise you're just repeating dogma.

It doesn't really need Sarkar to prove that consciousness and energy are the two sides of the same sheet.  
You can easily see in everyday life.
Take your car.
In it there is a lot of energy but this energy is unable to do anything unless you direct it to act or to express her potential.
Or take your computer.
Until you direct it to do something nothing happen so it is clear that energy plus consciousness must go hand in hand in order to do something.

Although low form of lives act according mother nature instinct the rule is the same which is that consciousness and energy always go hand in hand.  


Aren't you tired of failing again and again?  

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4) Life in this universe always come from life.
This is science yog.

Much as everything else here, this point has been discussed more fully in the evolution thread, and has already been more than adequately answered.  You have no justification for your belief that life comes only from life, and therefore it's just dogma.  Science for its part has neither concluded that life comes from non-life nor that it doesn't, so your claiming that it is science is just a lie which you keep repeating.

Fail for the hundred times yog.  

Science has established that everything is made of vibrations.  
Bodies in which these vibrations exist are capable of giving life therefore is quite clear that to give life a body full of vibration is essential.

Without vibrations there would not be a body.
No matter, no veg. life, no animal life, no human life, nothing, not even the universe because even the universe is made of vibrations.
Nothing at all, so life wouldn't be there without vibrations.

From here is obvious that vibrations must be alive.  

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There is no such a thing as anything void of life.
Even matter has life in it even if it is in a latent form.  

Yes, we've been through all this in the evolution thread.  Life in matter is both obvious and known, but at the same time hidden and incapable of being observed.   No, your arguments, such as they are, either include falsehoods, fallacies, errors of reasoning, or simple misstatements of fact.  This is because your explanations are nothing more than tissue thin rationalizations for your justification of believing these things which is really based primarily on the fact that your guru had asserted them.  They are religious dogma, nothing more.

If you really think that there is something void of life please show to the world such an interesting theory.  
Didn't I tell you that you may even go for a Nobel prize?