The rapture is finally here again!

[Thor]

At least I have the Bible...what do you possess aside from personal belief?

Wonderful.... you have a book written nearly 2,000 years ago by unknown desert nomads. And this book has been translated many times. We also don't have the original writings. All we have is copies of copies. Plus, this book started out as an oral history passed down from person to person.

So, to summarize, what you have is a copy of a copy of a translation of a translation of a translation of an oral history that was passed down who knows how many times before it was written down. You couldn't have a grocery list go through that many retellings, translations and copies without having some big changes in the dinner menu!

But it's obviously all true.

And what I have is not "personal belief". It is a logical conclusion based upon the available evidence.

[DeistPaladin]

The Bible does not say that the 500 were there at Jesus' ascension. In fact if you read the next verse, it says Jesus appeared to James.

More Bible study is needed here:
Everyone turn to 1st Corinthians, chapter 15

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

One wonders what "scriptures" these are. The Gospels had not yet been written.

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

What "twelve"? Judas was dead and Thomas didn't see the risen Jesus until 8 days after the resurrection according to the Gospel of John. That makes 10 as I count it.

15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Over 500, it seems. So we DO have 500 in the city at the time Jesus rose into the sky. They became just 120 a short time later.

15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

So did the non-disciple apostles see Jesus in a vision in the same way Paul did? Were they also born too late?

15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Again, one wonders what the chief prosecutor of the Jews was doing while Jesus was preaching heresy and driving the priests nuts.

15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

So there were Christians who denied that Jesus had come in the flesh and Christians who denied that Jesus had risen again. All this was within about three years of the supposed events? One wonders why there were believers who denied such obvious and recent realities.

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ...
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul believed in a literal Adam and Eve. So much for the "it's just a metaphor".

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But it seems Paul didn't believe in the Trinity.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul thought the rapture would occur within his lifetime.

[Welsh cake]

Here’s the deal: There is Biblical and secular evidence for Jesus, yet there is not even one writing from that period to refute His existence.

Oh, please. Do you even in your dreams dare to grasp what the burden of proof means?

By your logic fictional characters like Noddy are now fact because Enid Blyton never wrote a book disclaiming his (Noddy's) or Toyland's existence.



Can you follow your train of thought all the to its derailment or not?

If I get atheists to start swearing at me, that means I’m getting in their craw.

Because talking complete utter rubbish, making erroneous assertions, uneducated guesses and coming off as overall unintelligible tends to have that effect on your audience.

[Chapabel]

Wonderful.... you have a book written nearly 2,000 years ago by unknown desert nomads. And this book has been translated many times. We also don't have the original writings. All we have is copies of copies. Plus, this book started out as an oral history passed down from person to person.

So, to summarize, what you have is a copy of a copy of a translation of a translation of a translation of an oral history that was passed down who knows how many times before it was written down. You couldn't have a grocery list go through that many retellings, translations and copies without having some big changes in the dinner menu!

But it's obviously all true.

And what I have is not "personal belief". It is a logical conclusion based upon the available evidence.

Let me remind you...we have over 24000 manuscripts on the Bible, in whole and in part. Of those 24000 manuscripts, roughly 95% are in agreement even though they are written in three different languages, over a period of 1500 years by 40 different writers.

So, is it your contention that someone went through those 24000 manuscripts in three different languages and made changes?

Let me also ask you this...how many copies of Homer's Iliad do we have? What about Caesar's Gallic Wars, Plato's Tetralogies? Answer me this: What do we possess as evidence that Socrates even existed?

"Logical conclusion" is by no means evidence. Thou must do better.

[Anomalocaris]

At least I have the Bible...what do you possess aside from personal belief?

The bible is quite the very least one could imagine. That it brings your "personal belief" somewhat in line with the "personal beliefs" of others equally as susceptible to wish thinking and comfort seeking as you does not change the fact that everything in the bible you believe is merely your personal belief unrooted only in scraps of paper and unrooted in the substances any substance.

I possess the a body of knowledge accummulated through the only structure of learning mankind ever devised which includes systematic proceedures for verification of its own results and the attenuation of the effects of personal biases and wishful thinking. Amongst the the things it verified is the falsity of your bible, and amongst the things it attenuated is the wishful thinking that some crazed illiterate Jewish apocalytic preacher squashed by the Romans like a bug somehow has the power to watch over me.

[Chapabel]

At least I have the Bible...what do you possess aside from personal belief?

The bible is quite the very least one could imagine. That it brings your "personal belief" somewhat in line with the "personal beliefs" of others equally as susceptible to wish thinking and comfort seeking as you does not change the fact that everything in the bible you believe is merely your personal belief unrooted only in scraps of paper and unrooted in the substances any substance.

I possess the a body of knowledge accummulated through the only structure of learning mankind ever devised which includes systematic proceedures for verification of its own results and the attenuation of the effects of personal biases and wishful thinking. Amongst the the things it verified is the falsity of your bible, and amongst the things it attenuated is the wishful thinking that some crazed illiterate Jewish apocalytic preacher squashed by the Romans like a bug somehow has the power to watch over me.

Wow...that is quite a mouthful just to say you really have nothing substantial. Oh well...to each his own. Good luck with that.

[Anomalocaris]

At least I have the Bible...what do you possess aside from personal belief?

The bible is quite the very least one could imagine. That it brings your "personal belief" somewhat in line with the "personal beliefs" of others equally as susceptible to wish thinking and comfort seeking as you does not change the fact that everything in the bible you believe is merely your personal belief unrooted only in scraps of paper and unrooted in the substances any substance.

I possess the a body of knowledge accummulated through the only structure of learning mankind ever devised which includes systematic proceedures for verification of its own results and the attenuation of the effects of personal biases and wishful thinking. Amongst the the things it verified is the falsity of your bible, and amongst the things it attenuated is the wishful thinking that some crazed illiterate Jewish apocalytic preacher squashed by the Romans like a bug somehow has the power to watch over me.

Wow...that is quite a mouthful just to say you really have nothing substantial. Oh well...to each his own. Good luck with that.

Nothing is more vacuous than the bible. Anything else, with the exception of bible's fellow holy books, would be more substantial than what you imagine you have chosen to guide your life.

[Chapabel]

Well, again I say...I have something I believe in to guide my life...what do you have besides your own beliefs and opinions? What kind of world would we live in if everyone acted according to their own opinions. Oh yeah, never mind...we are starting to see this. My bad.

[DeistPaladin]

Let me remind you...we have over 24000 manuscripts on the Bible, in whole and in part. Of those 24000 manuscripts, roughly 95% are in agreement even though they are written in three different languages, over a period of 1500 years by 40 different writers.

The earliest NT parchments we have date to the 3rd century.

Of these parchments, we do see significant changes made over time. The most famous is the ending of Mark, where much of chapter 16 is a later ad hoc.

Pseudo-epigraphy and interpolation were significant problems back then. It's estimated that only half the epistles attributed to Paul are "authentic".

There were numerous Christianities around during the first few centuries, each of which had their own gospels. The Ebionites used a version of Luke without the virgin birth. The Marcionites used Luke without the childhood of Jesus. Marcion used Paul as his poster boy prophet. Marcion taught that Jesus was a higher, separate god. Paul shared his views of Jewish rites but not his ideas about Jesus. So either Marcion didn't read what Paul wrote, was hoping no one else would read what Paul wrote, or we don't have the original teachings of Paul. Hmmmm.

But even letting all this go, the face value claims of Christian scripture are shaky, as my analysis of the vaunted 1Cor chapter 15 demonstrates.

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what do you have besides your own beliefs and opinions?

Evidence.
A natural universe governed by predictable laws best understood through science and reason.
A conscience.
A lack of belief in an afterlife which makes this life precious.
A healthy respect for the rights of others with a code of morality based on how I treat others.

[Thor]

Let me remind you...we have over 24000 manuscripts on the Bible, in whole and in part. Of those 24000 manuscripts, roughly 95% are in agreement even though they are written in three different languages, over a period of 1500 years by 40 different writers.

Great! Do you have the original manuscripts?

No.

Do you know who wrote any of the manuscripts?

No.

Do you know what changes might have been made when the original manuscripts were translated or copied?

No.

And why should I be surprised that manuscripts written by unknown parties would agree? Especially when we're talking religious writings. Writings that were most likely based upon the same original source.

So, is it your contention that someone went through those 24000 manuscripts in three different languages and made changes?

No. It's my contention that those manuscripts were most likely based upon one common source.

Let me also ask you this...how many copies of Homer's Iliad do we have? What about Caesar's Gallic Wars, Plato's Tetralogies? Answer me this: What do we possess as evidence that Socrates even existed?

Favorite Creationist Tactic #2 - Challenge Jesus doubters to prove that other figures from antiquity were real.

You can't compare historical figures who led ordinary lives with someone who supposedly pulled off incredible supernatural feats. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"Logical conclusion" is by no means evidence. Thou must do better.

Where did I say that a logical conclusion is evidence? It's not. A logical conclusion is what you reach when you consider the evidence.

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Well, again I say...I have something I believe in to guide my life...what do you have besides your own beliefs and opinions? What kind of world would we live in if everyone acted according to their own opinions. Oh yeah, never mind...we are starting to see this. My bad.

So the Bible guides your life? Do you own slaves? After all, the Bible gives slavery a big thumbs up!