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(October 28, 2011 at 7:26 am)tackattack Wrote: How far off the OP this is, I can't even find my last post in this thread. Perhaps I'm just too busy to keep up anymore. I thought we were discussing free will and heaven?
My thought process:
-When something good happens: something good happens
-When something bad happens: something bad happens
That's kind of how a causal universe system works right. cause -> effect --> cause ad nauseum.
Mighty Tack!! How are ya mate??
Yeah basically your summation gets my vote to...others have some rather exotic ideas??
Hey,hey KN. Terribly busy, unfortunately, but in a good and productive way. Still stopping by when summoned, as apparently I can't seem to keep track of too many conversations at once anymore and 20-30 minutes a day really isn't adequate for a really deep convo. Feel free to PM me or email me anytime though.
(October 28, 2011 at 7:30 am)ElDinero Wrote:
Unless you pray for something, which definitely and provably works, right tack? I guess you have either bailed out of or have forgotten that little debate.
are you suggesting that no response (ie nothing) would be the result from of positive prayer (something)? I thought for every cause there was an effect? Please forgive my long absences, with the myriad of distractions popping in threads (I'm aware this post is indeed a detractor) it's difficult to have a detailed and lengthy discussion like I used to. Feel free to point me (via PM) in that direction and I'll make a concerted effort to get it back on topic, no slight was meant by my losing that thread.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(October 30, 2011 at 7:56 am)Zen Badger Wrote: So he still allows people to kill each other even though he hasn't decided that it is their time to die. What is the difference between what I said and what you said?
Okay, I am going to try this one more time.
God gives man the choice to do good or evil. So, He allows people to make choices which violate His laws for the sake of free will. He also brings judgement and may decide to recall someone for the evil they've done. Generally He is patient, not wanting anyone to be condemned. Lets say you got stabbed and left for dead. Help is 10 minutes away and its serious. God could at that time call you up, or He could keep your spirit there until help arrived.
Does this mean God is responsible for your death? No, because by having transgressed His laws you put your life in His hands. The penalty for sin is death and it is up to God when He wants to enforce it.
So people can die even though god hasn't decided it's their time then?
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
October 31, 2011 at 10:28 am (This post was last modified: October 31, 2011 at 10:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Perhaps I can so easily recognize the despot, the tyrant, and the facist for he what he is (speaking directly towards your god construct) because I've acknowledged the fact that these urges exist within me. In fact, aren't I always suggesting that your god is a front for your own values, your own prejudices? If I had the need and will to believe in a god it would likely end up being similar to your own, because I'm a human being, same as yourself. We have a demonstrable penchant for tyrant gods (that are predictably on our side). The sane among us don't assume god has to be a tyrant simply because we so often imagine him to be so. The sane instead prefer to explain that tyrant gods give us insight into what motivates ourselves, each other, and definitively not the cosmos itself.
Your god and my own inner tyrant are family, and they recognize each other immediately. The difference between you and I in this regard (it would seem), is that I'm not under any delusions that put that part of my psyche at the helm of the cosmic ship as you have done with yours.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 31, 2011 at 10:28 am)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps I can so easily recognize the despot, the tyrant, and the facist for he what he is (speaking directly towards your god construct) because I've acknowledged the fact that these urges exist within me. In fact, aren't I always suggesting that your god is a front for your own values, your own prejudices? If I had the need and will to believe in a god it would likely end up being similar to your own, because I'm a human being, same as yourself. We have a demonstrable penchant for tyrant gods (that are predictably on our side). The sane among us don't assume god has to be a tyrant simply because we so often imagine him to be so. The sane instead prefer to explain that tyrant gods give us insight into what motivates ourselves, each other, and definitively not the cosmos itself.
I don't put myself in the judgement seat. God told us to love our neighbors, forgive those who wrong you, and bless those who persecute you. I am not hoping for revenge on my enemies because I don't have any. I don't hate anyone. God does not delight in the death of any wicked person, He desires that everyone comes to repentence. I hope and pray this for everyone What God wants is to give everyone eternal life, but He isn't going to force anyone to accept.
(October 31, 2011 at 10:28 am)Rhythm Wrote: Your god and my own inner tyrant are family, and they recognize each other immediately. The difference between you and I in this regard (it would seem), is that I'm not under any delusions that put that part of my psyche at the helm of the cosmic ship as you have done with yours.
The inner tyrant is in rebellion against God, they are not compatriots. It is the part of human beings that wants to do everything its own way and refuses to submit to Gods authority.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 28, 2011 at 7:26 am)tackattack Wrote: How far off the OP this is, I can't even find my last post in this thread. Perhaps I'm just too busy to keep up anymore. I thought we were discussing free will and heaven?
My thought process:
-When something good happens: something good happens
-When something bad happens: something bad happens
That's kind of how a causal universe system works right. cause -> effect --> cause ad nauseum.
Mighty Tack!! How are ya mate??
Yeah basically your summation gets my vote to...others have some rather exotic ideas??
Hey,hey KN. Terribly busy, unfortunately, but in a good and productive way. Still stopping by when summoned, as apparently I can't seem to keep track of too many conversations at once anymore and 20-30 minutes a day really isn't adequate for a really deep convo. Feel free to PM me or email me anytime though.
Won't PM anyone unless the world is ending ...or some such other nonsense. Glad to hear you are ok and all is fine if a little busy in your end of this rock. Same goes for here...I wondering when I can have a day to just sit in the sun..meh
Stay well mate...regards to you and yours
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
November 1, 2011 at 9:54 am (This post was last modified: November 1, 2011 at 9:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 1, 2011 at 1:03 am)lucent Wrote: I don't put myself in the judgement seat.God told us to love our neighbors, forgive those who wrong you, and bless those who persecute you. I am not hoping for revenge on my enemies because I don't have any. I don't hate anyone. God does not delight in the death of any wicked person, He desires that everyone comes to repentence.I hope and pray this for everyoneWhat God wants is to give everyone eternal life, but He isn't going to force anyone to accept.
I bolded and italicized above so that you might be able to better understand how easily you shift in and out between describing yourself and your god. You convey an overall message about either equally and if the distinction weren't made the grammar and language makes it appear as though it could be one long statement about a single entity. Why do you suppose it is so easy to accomplish this?
You seem to shift back and forth when taking breaths. I'm fairly certain you may be confusing the two subjects in the course of the message.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 31, 2011 at 1:41 am)lucent Wrote: finally, i am not selecting atheists out to be sinners. all human beings sin, and i deserve the judgement of God just as much as anyone else.
A 'sin' is a transgression of your god's law. We have no god to sin against therefore, an atheist does not and cannot sin.
Psst! ... Did we mention there is no such thing as god? So, you are not a sinner either. Cool ... Huh? Now you can get on with enjoying this life before you fritter it all away on delusional nonsense. Kick back, have a beer and light one up.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Please forgive my long absences, with the myriad of distractions popping in threads (I'm aware this post is indeed a detractor) it's difficult to have a detailed and lengthy discussion like I used to. Feel free to point me (via PM) in that direction and I'll make a concerted effort to get it back on topic, no slight was meant by my losing that thread. 
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