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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:17 pm
(This post was last modified: May 24, 2018 at 4:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That;s absurd, and even if it werent, you only followed it up with an argument from incredulity.
If the state of nature is x -regardless of how it came to be x- and that state x is the reason that something is immoral..all that matters to the moral assessment is that state x. Not it;s past or providence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:18 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think we agree on everything except this single point: an immoral action remains immoral in a godless universe.
I wouldn't agree with that myself, being more inclined to agree with the the conclusions of Nietzsche and Dostoevsky.
<insert profound quote here>
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:18 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 4:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: (May 24, 2018 at 3:47 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: god gets a pass. Kind of a do as I say and not as I do god.
A pass on what? He can't murder. Taking a life? Perfectly within the job description AND guided by a nature that cannot choose a lesser good. Your objection/analysis is overly simplistic. If that's the level of simplicity you need, you shouldn't engage in conversations containing systematic theology. The two are incompatible.
How convenient. god sets up a reward/revenge death cult.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:20 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 4:18 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (May 24, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think we agree on everything except this single point: an immoral action remains immoral in a godless universe.
I wouldn't agree with that myself, being more inclined to agree with the the conclusions of Nietzsche and Dostoevsky.
What changes about the act itself in a godless universe?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:22 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I said in my former post that I was pretty sure you didn't think things are morally wrong "just because God said so." We agree that morality is 100% objective. We also agree that morality can be understood through human reason. I reject that morality is subjective which is why I reject divine command theory. Divine command theory assumes that something can be wrong only if God says it is. Why is stealing wrong? Because God said so. Not because you are depriving someone of their hard-earned property--that's irrelevant. With divine command, it's subjective morality, but based on God's opinion. Thus divine command becomes incoherent without a deity. Natural law does not suffer from this limitation.
I think we agree on everything except this single point: an immoral action remains immoral in a godless universe. After all, if morality can be "understood universally through human reason" why is God necessary to distinguish moral values? It seems that all that is necessary is human reason. Thus--to return to your original point--even in a universe that exists by accident, we can discern objective moral values with our capacity of reason alone. No God required.
Divine Command Theory is not subjective. God's commands are a result of his perfectly good nature--of which he is bound by--which provides an objective foundation for all moral commands.
There is no objective morality without an unchanging standard. The very definition of evolution ensures there is not such thing. You can have principles on which to base morality, but those principles are themselves not objective. You will always have an infinite regression of "why is it good...why...why" with nothing to stop it. Go ahead, try it.
Why is murder morally wrong?
-It violates the rights of another
--Why is that wrong?
---
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:26 pm
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:27 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 4:26 pm)Khemikal Wrote: This one;s going to be evergreen.
https://atheistforums.org/thread-52547.html
Wow just wow
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:35 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I said in my former post that I was pretty sure you didn't think things are morally wrong "just because God said so." We agree that morality is 100% objective. We also agree that morality can be understood through human reason. I reject that morality is subjective which is why I reject divine command theory. Divine command theory assumes that something can be wrong only if God says it is. Why is stealing wrong? Because God said so. Not because you are depriving someone of their hard-earned property--that's irrelevant. With divine command, it's subjective morality, but based on God's opinion. Thus divine command becomes incoherent without a deity. Natural law does not suffer from this limitation.
I wouldn't say "because God says so" is incorrect, I would say it is terribly incomplete and simplistic. Yes, God does say stealing is wrong. But why? He says it's wrong because of exactly as you said: you are depriving someone of their hard earned money. A human being has inherent human rights endowed to them by God (ie, by natural law). And by stealing something that belongs to them, you are violating their inherent right as a human being.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:37 pm
(This post was last modified: May 24, 2018 at 4:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Rights endowed by natural law are not endowed by god, but by the state of nature x...however that state of nature x is arrived at. Natural law is a poison pill for divine claims to morality. It;s true that religion sought to claim ownership over nature..but, in doing so..they cut themselves out of the moral calculus entirely. Maybe they should have known better...when they were cribbing the kinds of things a bunch of twig worshiping pagans said?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theists: how do you account for psychopaths?
May 24, 2018 at 4:46 pm
(May 24, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think we agree on everything except this single point: an immoral action remains immoral in a godless universe. After all, if morality can be "understood universally through human reason" why is God necessary to distinguish moral values? It seems that all that is necessary is human reason. Thus--to return to your original point--even in a universe that exists by accident, we can discern objective moral values with our capacity of reason alone. No God required.
I completely agree with you that any normal person can know basic morality through human reason. Belief in God is not required for this, and an atheist can be a moral person.
I just don't see how inherent universal moral laws would exist in the first place without the existence of a law giver. If this whole world is just a random accident of purely material stuff, without any sort of intended order or objective purpose, how can the existance of objective moral laws be justified?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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