Can God love?

[emjay]

Interesting story above. IMO you don't give yourself enough credit for your achievements... IMO it was your own determination, ingenuity, and intuition that has led to the success of your business and inventions. And you're always saying you didn't do well at school but so what? Some people are better with their hands. And the fact that you self-taught yourself loads of stuff only shows more your determination... something to be admired.

And I can't remember exactly what you said but it was a friend? of yours that gave you some money, which you saw as an answer to prayer and/or prophecy? Did he give it to you as a gift or was he investing in your business? Either way I think this time you're not giving your friend enough credit... if you attribute it to God. My guess is he saw your potential and determination... like if you went on The Apprentice with the attitude and determination you've described, I bet Alan Sugar would snap you up in a heartbeat.

Not to mention I can't see how you can attribute the actions of your friend to God anyway, given that he gave it to you out of his own free will which, under your system, God doesn't mess with. And as for your innovations, did you understand the ideas that came to you? If you did, that just shows subconscious intuition in progress... your brain working behind the scenes putting the pieces together, ready for a light bulb moment.

IMO it's all you.

A perfect example of how religion is a parasite.

I don't disagree... I just use a different word for it; I think it was Richard Dawkins? who talked about 'memes'... as in an idea... a little bit of mental programming... that is easily picked up, retained, and passed on... and in that sense parasitic whatever they are; where the two properties they can be judged on are basically their persistence and usefulness... and where in that light, religion would be a persistent but useless/nefarious meme.

[I_am_not_mafia]

I sometimes refer to religion as a parasitic meme for that reason.

[robvalue]

It's funny how people from different religions all get "benefits"; even though they claim, at the same time, that this can't be possible.

because they are not benefits as you see them. they are means to an end another responsibility another 'test' to mke you ready for the next level.

I started my business it was just me and I could even afford to pay my wife part time. so she worked for free off the books. then I was privy to 'lots of benefits' which required lots of works self sacrifice pain and loss. which prompted me for the next level of hard work, pain and loss. and so on it goes. Yes there is benefit, but in the end you know none of this belongs to you and can be ask back at any moment. why because you are a servant, not one being serviced by a genie.

Uhuh, but people from any other religion can report the same benefits. So either god hands them out to people who are even in the wrong religion; or else god isn't involved at all.

[Godscreated]

   

I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument with you because it will go nowhere and I haven't the time right now.

Odin and Thor are non-existent so why would you feel loved by them. I'm not stupid

That's exactly the same reason that i don't feel unloved by your god, it was your claim that atheists felt unloved (by your god), I was merely pointing out to you how silly that was.

I did not say atheist, I was responding only to the OP, Jormungandr. I have said all along that she is loved, it was her that said she did not fell loved and I said her notion was untrue. You seem to have everything backwards, probably because all you want to do is interfere and derail a conversation, one that was not directed to you. This is another reason I want get into a drawn out argument with you.

I know that this is a conversation about if God exists as far as the atheist are concerned. You do not know what might be going through her mind/heart now do you. As far as God being non-existent, you have yet to establish such a claim. 

Then why have labels at all ? If you are going to say they mean nothing because a particular person may be having other thoughts at any particular time.
And I don't need to prove that god is non existent, just like you have not proven Odin or Thor do not exist, even when given a whole thread to do so by Mathilda using your own logic.  You are making the positive claim, you provide the proof.

The bold by me is an old and tired argument by atheist that has no merit. When I ask atheist to do the same on claims they make about different things they always counter it's not necessary. It is a consensus that Odin and Thor are not real, those that know about them have relegated them to fantasy, so I have no obligation to disprove what is already widely accepted as nonexistent. 

man has put himself outside of God's presence and it has to be man's choice to return and God has given us a way to do just that, if you do not accept it that is your fault not God's.

 

Again you simply repeat the mantra  .. you need to do this or that , and it's your fault.

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is. Tell me if (the if is for your sake alone) God exists would you want Him to make you love Him, do you have a desire to be slaved into God's family.

There is no if, either you accept or you do not, it's all up to you. Look at the bold if by me, I use that word to make the statement more acceptable to atheist, but I fixed it and it still reads the same. You reject God that is your fault and a terrible fault it will be, see no if.

That is an 'if' (i.e. you need to do this or that) another it's your fault, sprinkled with a hint of threat, like father like son hey  

You are not very smart are you, I can't threaten you with something I have no control over, you may perceive it as such but that is only in your mind and holds no truth. To need to do something is not an "if" it is a certainty, please try to understand the difference between an "if' and a certainty. In a certainty that you do nothing or the wrong thing it does become your fault, I'm correct in what I say, you on the other hand are out to impress your atheist friends, a shallow venture IMO.

What makes you believe God can simply forgive sin, because you say so, not hardly.

Why can't god a god who can  do anything simply forgive, have you even thought it through ?

Sin is a crime against God, just as murder is a crime against man, both deserve punishment. Found guilty of murder a man is punished, not just forgiven and let go. found guilty of sin a man is punished not just forgiven, a price has to be paid in both cases. Jesus paid the price for those who will accept Him as their savior and then God will forgive the sins. How about that for thought.

Sin will only be forgiven for those who have remorse over their sin and to do so one must understand what sin is and I've yet to speak to an atheist who knows why sin is sin. By the way what God did is your only hope for eternal life, other wise it will be eternal punishment.

And here we go again, an 'if' you do this or that, followed by a 'you don't understand' , maybe you could open a thread about sin telling us what we don't understand ?  And of course the inevitable (but entirely predictable) threat of eternal punishment.

You're like a broken record, you just repeat the same old trash even when it has been clearly spelled out for you. Usually the one who feels the guilt feels threatened even when no threat was intended or given. Sin has been explained here a thousand times or more and yet no atheist to my knowledge considers it to be right. 

Because man placed a barrier between himself and God don't you think that it's man's responsibility

And what father allows that barrier to stand ?

Good cherry picking job, almost. I know what he rest of my statement said and so will anyone else if they care to go read it to find the truth. I will explain again since you seem to have trouble understanding simple things. God the Son came and lived in the form of man as Jesus, preach and lived a sinless life, was crucified by man for crimes He did not commit, laid dead in a tomb and then His body was resurrected to eternal life. God broke the barrier down and it's man's responsibility to accept the actions God took on man's behalf. So the heavenly Father did remove the barrier that man could have never done. Many human fathers let barriers stand between them and their children, happens most often in divorces. 

Now your just being childish, there's no if to it and it was a question to be answered by the one I posted to, not for a nosy busy body to come along and deflect from the discussion.

Great so I don't have to do anything then, god will simply forgive me  

Again being childish, grow up.

we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us and if you refuse this gift it's your loss.

Whoaa hang on, if fact there is an 'if' I have to do something... followed of course by threats (there is definitely a pattern to your writing)

That makes no sense at all. The pattern you see come from the guilt in your heart that you apparently do not see. You do nothing more than reach out and accept the gift with a contrite heart. Or you can pay your own price.

Same as above the bold if by me. leaving out the if doesn't change the fact and it makes it sound as if there is no hope. Why did you jump into this conversation anyway, nothing better to do that to show your ignorance of God would be my guess.

Ermm okay, though in my defence it's hard to have knowledge about a god that is the same as no god.

That will not be a defense at your judgement, God says no one will come before me with that defense. Seeking God is a simple process, plainly laid out in the NT.

acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world.

Ahh another 'if' you do this or that' .. no death threats this time, well done.

Acceptance of a gift is not doing something, it's free, there is no free if you reject it and this is not a threat it is what God promises, if I'm right you're in trouble, if I'm not we are on equal ground. You think that hell is death, not hardly. people in hell will have eternal life also, they will live the punishment they establish for themselves in this life, yes you read it correctly, you are pronouncing your own punishment. God just sends you to a place to live that punishment for eternity, the punishment you determined by the life you live.

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory, I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all.

Shakes head, we are talking about how god can't love right ? just showing you that merely proclaiming it in the face of threats is not love. 

No you are not doing that at all, you are trying to derail a conversation I was having with another and i'm talking about how God loves everyone, I told you you had no idea what this thread was to be about. God has never threatened you and I certainly haven't because I haven't any authority over your eternal destination, you do though, so I guess you could say the threat is actually coming from yourself, surprised. From you is the only place a threat can come from, a guilty heart is the one that perceives a threat, God doesn't threaten He gives a choice, I can't threaten because i haven't the authority to determine your finial destination, you do though by simply accepting the free gift of salvation.

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

Well like most ex-christians on this board, we experienced what at the time we thought was god's mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable  love, but alas it just turned out to be brainwashing. The feeling is though speaking to people of other faiths and religious practices is not limited to christianity, it's all in the head.

You were never a Christian, if you had known God as I do you would have never ran away, a Christians knows God's love is not mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable, we do have an understanding of God's love, it's even laid out in plain English in the NT. That was your problem you had head knowledge and never experienced God in your heart/soul. It's obvious you did not study the scriptures by the way you argue against God and His love.

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind.

No I'm pretty sure you have very definite pattern along the lines of ..  

1) if you do this or that  (the if is to show hope)
2) it's your fault (you have a choice)  
3) you are going to suffer terribly (this could be the result of your choice) 

My answers are in red above

The real pattern here is you can do nothing other than be derogatory about a conversation that wasn't even directed at you, nosy.

It's an open forum silly, i mean really you do know anyone can read or respond in the open section ?

Of coarse, the thing is you have missed the whole point of my first post, you are out to derail the conversation and nothing more.

No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

Okay Mr believer in talking donkeys, Flying chariots, Talking serpents, men living in mammals for three days.. got ya  

Supernatural power. How is it you believe the animal that swallowed Jonah was a mammal, oh that's right you haven't bothered to read the story.  

That was implied, sorry you are so carried away with your degradation that you are blind to what's being said, but then that would be your fault. Again I eliminated the if and the statement is the same. The if is to make a kinder feeling. You can't understand such a concept though because all you know how to do is blindly follow your ifs.

Then if it was implied, why compare it to god's supposed love ?  The lady in question would have no doubt that..

1) You existed
2) That you loved her by showing a display of that love

One would have thought that if god truly loves and is capable of love, that he would show that love in a clear way, in no way is it comparable, unless of course you court this lady by being invisible,  untouchable, unfathomable, and give death threats is she does not love you back. Then toss in eternal torment as an aside.

God does do things a bit different but then He has to. Man in his state of sin can not look upon such a holy being, therefore one can't possibly see Him. God the Son came to live as a man named Jesus and was killed by man for all man's sin so man could re-enter an open relationship with God, He couldn't have shown it any clearer way. He finished it by rising from the dead and into eternal life so we could have hope in an eternal relationship with Him. As I explained before God does not give death threats, even if you choose to reject Christ you will live forever, only it will be in the place you chose ans you'll suffer the punishment you made.

How is it you can define what God's love is and does, you've never wanted it,

I'm not trying to define it at all, that's the point, gods love simply does not exists it's a man made construct. The unfathomable, spiritual, and you have to believe it's true before it's true, is simply a way of trying to explain why a god who can do anything, is love.. is exactly the same as no god at all.

Prove the bold by me. No atheist has been able to for thousands of years, will you be the first. Prove the rest of your statement because God is definitely real and always has been, so coming into belief involves coming to know Him who has existed for an eternity. God is not love because He is omnipotent, He is love because that is who He is.

I did not say it was her fault, I said she doesn't want something that has been offered, please try and understand an entire conversation before you blatantly try to derail the conversation, a trick of children. Again you have not established God doesn't exist or that He is a fantasy. Because you are blind to the existence of God doesn't mean He isn't real and waiting on you to respond to the love He has already given you.

Yes but again in your example she knows you exists, in fact you have made that blatantly obvious, and you have made your love clear in an understandable way.  I doubt she would be as understanding if you had your brutally murdered your son and then claimed you loved her, and tossed in eternal torment as the alternative.

Knowing I exist does is no assurance she recognizes me. Because I make my love clear doesn't mean she understands it. Man murdered Jesus not the Father, Christ volunteered to come and live and die as Jesus, He was not forced to do so. No one is tossed into eternal torment that does not deserve to be there, each makes it clear they prefer not to live with God so hell is the only place left, it's the place the lost choose and they decide their own punishment in the way they live this life. You see everyone punishment in hell will be different in type and intensity but it will be everlasting.  

I've accepted it, you bold the answer why couldn't you see it, shame, shame second grade understanding that is.
No when one believes they know. More ifs from you, only in a derogatory way.
No if in that statement, you are so if crazy you are seeing things, help may be in order for you. It is a completely positive statement and has a result in choice one way or the other and there is no if about it.

What's with this positive statement thing ? Sure (in theology) we have to make a choice but isn't that an 'if' we make a choice i.e.: 'If' we do this or that.  In other words god's love is never realised unless we (who cannot do anything) actually do something ?
So it's conditional there is no other way to dress it up.

The positive statement is the same as giving truth. No there is a decision to be made in this world created by God with man corrupting the creation through his disobedience man was then left with the decision to correct the disobedience by acceptance of Jesus and His work for us. Man has forced himself into the position of needing to make this decision, not God. So there is no if, it is either or. God's love is realized the minute one accepts what Jesus did for mankind, just as the love I have for the lady is realized once she accepts my love. What Jesus did for mankind was absolutely love. To accept the free gift is not doing much as in an action, the gift contains all the work for forgiveness a work man can never do for himself. In a way it is conditional, that is the decision not the love of God. Man forced the condition He is in and can only correct it through Jesus and to do so is to simply accept what He did for you.

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

And yet again the threats !

Truth is never a threat, it is what it is, truth. Can't you get it through your head that there is no threat other than the one you imagine. Those that see this choice as a threat IMO are afraid and feel it deep down.

I'm speaking of the present and you have jumped to a future possibility,

And yet you bring it up all the time (hell)

I only tell the truth of this situation, hell is a reality whether you want to believe it or not and it is a terrible reality man has made for himself. I just do not know how to make this any clearer. Would you rather I lied to you and tell you there is nothing to fear, that when you die everything will be alright even though you rejected Christ, to do that would prove Christians have no love for their fellow man. If someone knew a building was going to fall on me if I walked down a certain street tomorrow and did not tell me that would be nothing less than murder. However if they tell me and I still do walk that street and am killed by the falling building then the responsibility falls on me.

why, my guess to derail the conversation or show how foolish you are about God.

Yes like I'm foolish about Thor and Odin.

I believe we've pretty much established Thor and Odin are not real. Lost cause on this argument for you.

By the way when arguing against what God says please use the correct terminology. No where in the scriptures is hell described as torture, that is your incorrect interpretation of what hell is.

So if I were to create a place to throw someone (god forbid) into a blazing furnace, a place where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
and  tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,

That does not cut it as torture for you ?

If that were true then it would be torture, however your understanding of hell doesn't seem to account for your unforgiven sin.  First of all no one will be able to see into hell, God says the gulf between hell and anywhere is so great it can never be crossed. Do you think a holy and loving God would allow those who made the choice to accept Jesus as their savior and believe that God will protect them in eternity, would allow anyone to see the suffering those in hell are putting themselves through, not hardly.
You also seem to think that hell is fire and brimstone, if it were then everyone's punishment would be equal and the scriptures tell us that there will be different levels of punishment. Scripture also tells us hell is a dark place, how could it be dark when there's a raging fire going on. Do you not think God explained hell in the way He did because that description is the only way man's mind could fathom the horrors of hell. God allowing you to determine your punishment in hell by the way you live this life is a sure way to insure each person suffers at a different level for the life they lived against Him.
 

I did not start my post with such a misunderstanding, you wanted to read it that way and that is what you got, you have no idea what the conversation was about, you cared only about nonexistent if that you wanted to pertain to conditions and not one of those if were conditional. It's one way or the other with no ifs involved. Me repeating a mantra, your the one obsessed with the if and one that only existed in your mind not my conversation with another. Your whole purpose is to derail a conversation because you did not like what you read, something that wasn't intended for you in the first place. Christians who care will not sugar coat reality, that would be dishonest. So in being honest we are showing our love, do you really believe I would have stayed here this long and not care about those I speak to, unlike you who speaks at people I speak to them, giving them reason to consider. I have no control over what they decide nor the finial destination, that's between them and God, I can only tell people what the Bible says, you know the Word of God.

Yes we know you repeat what you believe scripture to say, your regurgitation of your theology and scripture (which as many different sects of christianty would show) is not the same thing at all, I'm willing to grant that you believe because you believe, I'm really asking why we should?

Regurgitation would mean I have not digested scripture and though I have much to digest I have certainly digested enough to speak the truth about God and His truths about life. What I have been telling you about God's love is accepted through out all of Christianity, all denominations. You should believe because what I've said is true, of coarse the only way you will know this is to respond to Jesus. I can't and wouldn't make you believe and why, because God want force you to believe either, it's your decision as to whether you want to correct the situation by accepting God's free gift. God loves you enough to leave His glory and live and suffer as a man and then suffer greatly at the hand of man, suffer until it killed Him. He then rose up from the dead to prove to us that eternal life was part of the gift and all we need to do is say yes. It's like this you decide your eternal destination not God and you decide it because as people we are living in sin that we made. God is willing to forgive that sin so completely it's like you had never sinned. Our sin is against God, against who He is, it is in reality rebellion against Him, yet He in all His grace is willing to separate us from our sin as far as the east is from the west. Then there is living in a relationship with the creator of the universe, the One who can reveal all things to us, giving us eternal peace and eternal separation from sin to live an eternal life beyond our understanding. If these are not reasons enough then I guess I have nothing else to explain to you on this subject, if you need more than these things you are wanting in a selfish way and must believe you have no needs. For me I need all that God is offering and will be grateful when I receive any of it.
 

 I have been honest and made good points from a reasonable position about God's love for a person who has questioned that love, you never addressed the theme of the conversation and did your best to eliminate the real subject with all your ifs. Your blindness of the scriptures and Jesus may cost you in the future, this is no threat, only you can pay the cost of rejection, for me Christ has already payed my price and I praise Him for that.

And again *bold mine* the non threat threat !, it's become so ingrained in you that you don't even realise that you are doing it.
I believe that you believe you are being honest, I don't have a problem believing that you believe, any more than I doubt a Muslim, J.W. Buddhist..... etc also believes.   I'm asking for a good reason for me to believe.

I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is the truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling you what I know to be the truth because I know God to be real and who He says He is, it's as simple as that. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell
  I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling what I know to be the truth because I know God is real and He is who He says He is, it is as simple as that. These things are not my truths they are God's and I know God not to be a liar. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell. I do not like to use hell as a way to get peoples attention, It is much better to come to God through love than fear and it makes a persons walk and understanding of God easier because one doesn't have to deal with the fear factor until they learn more about God. Unfortunately for me I came to god through fear and it took me much longer to come to understand the love of God and now that I do I try to approach people with His love first and foremost. Nearly every time hell enters a discussion I'm having here an atheist brings it up first. When I'm the one to bring up hell first it's to get someone's attention because I feel they are rejecting all the good about God and the love He has for them. Anyway I've given you the truth and it's now between you and God, if you so choose.

GC

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

[Succubus]

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

Physician, heal thyself.

[possibletarian]

I did not say atheist, I was responding only to the OP, Jormungandr. I have said all along that she is loved, it was her that said she did not fell loved and I said her notion was untrue. You seem to have everything backwards, probably because all you want to do is interfere and derail a conversation, one that was not directed to you. This is another reason I want get into a drawn out argument with you.

I think you meant 'don't' not do ?

The bold by me is an old and tired argument by atheist that has no merit. When I ask atheist to do the same on claims they make about different things they always counter it's not necessary. It is a consensus that Odin and Thor are not real, those that know about them have relegated them to fantasy, so I have no obligation to disprove what is already widely accepted as nonexistent.

No really the positive claimant is the one with the burden of proof,  otherwise you would have to disprove Zeus, Hera, Allah, Odin or any of the other 8,000–12,000 gods* to make your claim of a true or only god valid.  I just go one further and add my scepticism to yours too.
*https://www.quora.com/How-many-gods-are-currently-worshipped-on-earth

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is. Tell me if (the if is for your sake alone) God exists would you want Him to make you love Him, do you have a desire to be slaved into God's family.

Truth is surprisingly difficult to define, but the statement 'god exists' requires some substantial evidence none of which you can provide.

You are not very smart are you, I can't threaten you with something I have no control over, you may perceive it as such but that is only in your mind and holds no truth. To need to do something is not an "if" it is a certainty, please try to understand the difference between an "if' and a certainty. In a certainty that you do nothing or the wrong thing it does become your fault, I'm correct in what I say, you on the other hand are out to impress your atheist friends, a shallow venture IMO.

I didn't understand that at all 'if' you do something and another thing will certainly follow makes them entirely compatible when used together. In fact you said so at the same time as saying it isn't so.

Sin is a crime against God, just as murder is a crime against man, both deserve punishment. Found guilty of murder a man is punished, not just forgiven and let go. found guilty of sin a man is punished not just forgiven, a price has to be paid in both cases. Jesus paid the price for those who will accept Him as their savior and then God will forgive the sins. How about that for thought.

Why did Jesus have to pay the price though? why couldn't god (who can do anything) simply forgive, you have yet to provide a answer to that. If you don't know simply say that you don't know.  That a god would have to brutally sacrifice his son is stupid beyond belief, and how would god find the smell of burning flesh pleasing, i mean really !

You're like a broken record, you just repeat the same old trash even when it has been clearly spelled out for you. Usually the one who feels the guilt feels threatened even when no threat was intended or given. Sin has been explained here a thousand times or more and yet no atheist to my knowledge considers it to be right.

Well no they are valid questions, and given that you have explained sin a thousand times (you say) and still no atheist to your knowledge considers it right, isn't that a clue how silly it is.  Sure people do things wrong to each other, but so what ?

Good cherry picking job, almost. I know what he rest of my statement said and so will anyone else if they care to go read it to find the truth. I will explain again since you seem to have trouble understanding simple things. God the Son came and lived in the form of man as Jesus, preach and lived a sinless life, was crucified by man for crimes He did not commit, laid dead in a tomb and then His body was resurrected to eternal life. God broke the barrier down and it's man's responsibility to accept the actions God took on man's behalf. So the heavenly Father did remove the barrier that man could have never done. Many human fathers let barriers stand between them and their children, happens most often in divorces.

Yes we know what the bible storybook says, but does not answer my very simple question, why didn't god simply forgive us ?

Again being childish, grow up
we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us

Fair enough again we are aware what your storybook says, but still does not answer my question it's only a repeating of your ingrained doctrine.

you refuse this gift it's your loss.

Yes, yes hellfire, worms, eternity.. we get it. We just have no reason to believe you.

That will not be a defense at your judgement, God says no one will come before me with that defense. Seeking God is a simple process, plainly laid out in the NT.

And more of the same...

Acceptance of a gift is not doing something, it's free, there is no free if you reject it and this is not a threat it is what God promises,

You used 'if' and it's very definitely a threat.

a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.*
*https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat

if I'm right you're in trouble, if I'm not we are on equal ground. You think that hell is death, not hardly. people in hell will have eternal life also, they will live the punishment they establish for themselves in this life,

More of the same.....

yes you read it correctly, you are pronouncing your own punishment.

And again...

God just sends you to a place to live that punishment for eternity, the punishment you determined by the life you live.

Ang yet again.. are you going for some kind of record to see how many times you can mention punishment and hell in one paragraph or something ?  This is what happens with dogma and indoctrination, you don't even realise just how silly the concept is.

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory,

Not at all, You have not shown any good reason to believe in the rather silly assertions you are making, very simple really.

I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all.

That would be fantastic, now if only you could show a good reason to believe that ?

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

What I want, proof you mean ?

You were never a Christian, if you had known God as I do you would have never ran away, a Christians knows God's love is not mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable, we do have an understanding of God's love, it's even laid out in plain English in the NT. That was your problem you had head knowledge and never experienced God in your heart/soul. It's obvious you did not study the scriptures by the way you argue against God and His love.

Almost to the word the same drivel I would have come out with as a christian to an ex  and i would have meant it too.
Sadly that's all it is drivel.. I recognise more of me in you than you could imagine.

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind.

No I'm pretty sure you have very definite pattern along the lines of ..  

1) if you do this or that  (the if is to show hope)
2) it's your fault (you have a choice)  
3) you are going to suffer terribly (this could be the result of your choice) 

My answers are in red above

You don't realise just how funny that is do you ?
1) there is no hope if you reject
2) You have dilemma not a choice
  a) live with a god who burns animals and enjoys the smell, tells his followers to kill infants and children, and looks in contempt at those in hell that he created.  etc.
  b) live in hell away from god
3) again a dilemma not a choice.

  again with the hellfire!

Of coarse, the thing is you have missed the whole point of my first post, you are out to derail the conversation and nothing more.

No, I'm pretty sure i get it, you just don't get it's nonsense.

No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

Okay Mr believer in talking donkeys, Flying chariots, Talking serpents, men living in mammals for three days.. got ya  

Supernatural power. How is it you believe the animal that swallowed Jonah was a mammal, oh that's right you haven't bothered to read the story.

 


So what do you believe it was ?

God does do things a bit different but then He has to. Man in his state of sin can not look upon such a holy being, therefore one can't possibly see Him. God the Son came to live as a man named Jesus and was killed by man for all man's sin so man could re-enter an open relationship with God, He couldn't have shown it any clearer way. He finished it by rising from the dead and into eternal life so we could have hope in an eternal relationship with Him. As I explained before God does not give death threats,

Yes, but again why ? we know that you doctrine teaches this but why do you believe such silliness ?

even if you choose to reject Christ you will live forever, only it will be in the place you chose ans you'll suffer the punishment you made.

And hellfire again, it's become a welcome old friend in your posts

Prove the bold by me. No atheist has been able to for thousands of years, will you be the first. Prove the rest of your statement because God is definitely real and always has been,

Well okay (though we have already asked) prove it.
Until you can show that your ridiculous god exists, then i will stick to the default position of not being convinced just like i am equally as unconvinced of the thousands of other gods, unless of course you are suggesting that in order for this to be rational i would have to disprove they exists at all ?

If that is the case you have the same burden, to disprove all god's but for your own which has been shown you cannot.

so coming into belief involves coming to know Him who has existed for an eternity. God is not love because He is omnipotent, He is love because that is who He is.

Can you show me it's more than indoctrination. ?
Of course believing in any god means that you believe in that god, that's just silly and could just as easily apply to many other gods.

Knowing I exist does is no assurance she recognizes me.

Be a start though.. aye ?

Because I make my love clear doesn't mean she understands it. Man murdered Jesus not the Father, Christ volunteered to come and live and die as Jesus, He was not forced to do so.

Yes but again back to my original question .. why not simply forgive, it's really stupid to believe a god would send his son (who was himself..kinda maybe.. who knows)  to die horribly as a human, when a god who can do anything, can do,well... anything

No one is tossed into eternal torment that does not deserve to be there, each makes it clear they prefer not to live with God

Well this is where making it clear you exists would help.

so hell is the only place left, it's the place the lost choose and they decide their own punishment in the way they live this life. You see everyone punishment in hell will be different in type and intensity but it will be everlasting. 

Ahh hellfire your old friend again, why make hell a place at all ?
And again, why not simply forgive ?  

The positive statement is the same as giving truth. No there is a decision to be made in this world created by God with man corrupting the creation through his disobedience man was then left with the decision to correct the disobedience by acceptance of Jesus and His work for us. Man has forced himself into the position of needing to make this decision, not God. So there is no if, it is either or. God's love is realized the minute one accepts what Jesus did for mankind, just as the love I have for the lady is realized once she accepts my love. What Jesus did for mankind was absolutely love. To accept the free gift is not doing much as in an action, the gift contains all the work for forgiveness a work man can never do for himself. In a way it is conditional, that is the decision not the love of God. Man forced the condition He is in and can only correct it through Jesus and to do so is to simply accept what He did for you.

I'm not sure this is any different to anything you have said before  and adds nothing

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

And again hellfire our old buddy

Truth is never a threat, it is what it is, truth.

Again it is definitely a threat, in fact it's the very definition
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat

Can't you get it through your head that there is no threat other than the one you imagine. Those that see this choice as a threat IMO are afraid and feel it deep down.

Yes sure if you say so dude.

I only tell the truth of this situation, hell is a reality whether you want to believe it or not and it is a terrible reality man has made for himself. I just do not know how to make this any clearer. Would you rather I lied to you and tell you there is nothing to fear, that when you die everything will be alright even though you rejected Christ, to do that would prove Christians have no love for their fellow man. If someone knew a building was going to fall on me if I walked down a certain street tomorrow and did not tell me that would be nothing less than murder. However if they tell me and I still do walk that street and am killed by the falling building then the responsibility falls on me.

That's just stupid, in this case the same person who warns you is also the creator of the falling building, and created it with the express purpose of falling.  The person in this instance clearly exists and has clearly spoken to you if an unambiguous way it's actually a terrible example.

As for lying, no i don't believe you are lying, i recall when i believed this stuff too.  I simply no longer see enough evidence for me to believe it's true.

I believe we've pretty much established Thor and Odin are not real. Lost cause on this argument for you.

Oh it's not an argument at all, I have absolutely no reason, just like with your god to believe they exists.
You however ask others to provide evidence that your god does not exists, something you cannot do yourself for the thousands of gods out there, this despite claiming some spiritual enlightenment.

If that were true then it would be torture, however your understanding of hell doesn't seem to account for your unforgiven sin.  First of all no one will be able to see into hell, God says the gulf between hell and anywhere is so great it can never be crossed. Do you think a holy and loving God would allow those who made the choice to accept Jesus as their savior and believe that God will protect them in eternity, would allow anyone to see the suffering those in hell are putting themselves through, not hardly.

What has who see's it got to do with it ?

You also seem to think that hell is fire and brimstone, if it were then everyone's punishment would be equal and the scriptures tell us that there will be different levels of punishment. Scripture also tells us hell is a dark place, how could it be dark when there's a raging fire going on. Do you not think God explained hell in the way He did because that description is the only way man's mind could fathom the horrors of hell. God allowing you to determine your punishment in hell by the way you live this life is a sure way to insure each person suffers at a different level for the life they lived against Him.

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.” —Isaiah 66:22-24

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” —Revelation 14:9-11

And yet.. it looks awfully fiery !
And of course (true to your form) our old friend.. hellfire

 

Regurgitation would mean I have not digested scripture and though I have much to digest I have certainly digested enough to speak the truth about God and His truths about life. What I have been telling you about God's love is accepted through out all of Christianity, all denominations. You should believe because what I've said is true,

You believing it to be true does not make it so, i believe that you believe though.

of coarse the only way you will know this is to respond to Jesus. I can't and wouldn't make you believe and why, because God want force you to believe either, it's your decision as to whether you want to correct the situation by accepting God's free gift. God loves you enough to leave His glory and live and suffer as a man and then suffer greatly at the hand of man, suffer until it killed Him. He then rose up from the dead to prove to us that eternal life was part of the gift and all we need to do is say yes.

Yes, again we get this as a doctrine, but why not simply forgive ?

It's like this you decide your eternal destination not God and you decide it because as people we are living in sin that we made. God is willing to forgive that sin so completely it's like you had never sinned. Our sin is against God, against who He is, it is in reality rebellion against Him,

Great news if true, but why not simply forgive why all the convoluted nonsense?

yet He in all His grace is willing to separate us from our sin as far as the east is from the west.

That would have made sense on a flat earth.

Then there is living in a relationship with the creator of the universe, the One who can reveal all things to us, giving us eternal peace and eternal separation from sin to live an eternal life beyond our understanding. If these are not reasons enough then I guess I have nothing else to explain to you on this subject,

That would be really cool if in some way you could prove it was real, and not merely indoctrination

if you need more than these things you are wanting in a selfish way and must believe you have no needs. For me I need all that God is offering and will be grateful when I receive any of it.

Oh I have needs, I'm just not willing to believe in any gods that cannot prove they exist, despite claiming to be the the ultimate being.

Again this does not answer my question, despite being long and wordy.
 

I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is the truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling you what I know to be the truth because I know God to be real and who He says He is, it's as simple as that. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell

No you never mention hell, of course not

 

Nearly every time hell enters a discussion I'm having here an atheist brings it up first.

If it wasn't so silly a concept they wouldn't bring it up is my guess.

When I'm the one to bring up hell first it's to get someone's attention because I feel they are rejecting all the good about God and the love He has for them. Anyway I've given you the truth and it's now between you and God, if you so choose.

I knew we had to finish on that subject

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

There only seems to be one subject really, (at least between us)  that is the incompatibility between a claimed unproven god of love, who gives a free gift, but cannot do so without  resorting to a childish threat.
[/quote]

[I_am_not_mafia]

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is.

Typical religious binary thinking.

What is Truth?

The only thing it can be is what happens in reality versus what we perceive or think happens.

The best way of determining the nature of reality is the scientific method. And this uses evidence.

Thing is, many things happen differently depending on what environment you are in.

There are very few things that are universally true. For example, the laws of thermodynamics, the speed of light etc

All of these universal truths contradict the existence of an eternal and intelligent god that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and able to love.

[Drich]

Drich, could you provide details of those patents, PM if you prefer.

I don't mind sharing what I have left, but they took everything I had, since they were bought from me and rolled into this greater project. it was like here's a check give us all your stuff sign 30 pages of non disclosure non compete, and 10 more on turning over any technical data which the patent paper work was basically a how to, so everything leading up to the patent I have, but all the patent it self is gone.

Drich, are you autistic to any degree?

my wife calls me an ass burger does that count?

<Superfluous stuff snipped>

...so from the meeting we went to the store spent about 300 of the 500 and went back to my shop where I put the whole thing together over a late friday and all day saturday. it ran all saturday night and sunday. we then drove the truck over to a meeting with the remaining engineers and showed them that we could in fact run a 230/3/20 amp truck on battery power for 4 continuous hours then when plugged in sense the polarity and charge itself.

You reinvented the wheel. What you've described here is an off the shelf voltage inverter.

Ahh, no. we incorporated 3 off the shelf inverters what's more for mobile use to create a pure sine 230 3 phase. what was needed was a way to feed the inverters reverse power to facilitate charging, while simultaneously allowing the refrigeration system to run. biggest problem was in an effort to save power while in battery mode. it was decided to convert the fans to 24vdc, which made them like 10/15amp monsters x3 fans. one of the thing I did was go back to the 110vac. the other problem we had was phasing the inverters they had to take power input from a singular source and the l1, l2, l3 leads could not be switch or swapped. problem was there were over 100 plug in stations and all were wired differently. the biggest problem was there wasn't an affordable inverter that would allow for the dead rotor kick. all of this plus there needed to be intermediary wiring to run the unit on standby and still supply the over the road components with 12vdc and trick the system to run in road mode while being supplied 230 volts.

Some clarification please.
When you say it ran all Saturday night and Sunday this was on mains power, yes?

after a 6 or 8 hour charge it ran over night on battery. meaning it ran to set point on shore power then switched to battery and cycled set pont all night.

By '230/3/20' I take it you mean the US system of using two 115V lives to give 230V? The '20' I take it is the amperage?

actually it is 230 three phase 20 amps in the delt configuration:

In the delta configuration (which most of the US is configured you get and even 230 across all legs except for the ground which is a total of 4 wires.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phas...tric_power
In the delta circuit, loads are connected across the lines, and so loads see line-to-line voltages:

[13] {\displaystyle {\begin{aligned}V_{12}&=V_{1}-V_{2}=(V_{\text{LN}}\angle 0^{\circ })-(V_{\text{LN}}\angle {-120}^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt {3}}V_{\text{LN}}\angle 30^{\circ }={\sqrt {3}}V_{1}\angle (\phi _{V_{1}}+30^{\circ }),\\V_{23}&=V_{2}-V_{3}=(V_{\text{LN}}\angle {-120}^{\circ })-(V_{\text{LN}}\angle 120^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt {3}}V_{\text{LN}}\angle {-90}^{\circ }={\sqrt {3}}V_{2}\angle (\phi _{V_{2}}+30^{\circ }),\\V_{31}&=V_{3}-V_{1}=(V_{\text{LN}}\angle 120^{\circ })-(V_{\text{LN}}\angle 0^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt {3}}V_{\text{LN}}\angle 150^{\circ }={\sqrt {3}}V_{3}\angle (\phi _{V_{3}}+30^{\circ }).\\\end{aligned}}} {\begin{aligned}V_{{12}}&=V_{1}-V_{2}=(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 0^{\circ })-(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle {-120}^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 30^{\circ }={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{1}}\angle (\phi _{{V_{1}}}+30^{\circ }),\\V_{{23}}&=V_{2}-V_{3}=(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle {-120}^{\circ })-(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 120^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle {-90}^{\circ }={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{2}}\angle (\phi _{{V_{2}}}+30^{\circ }),\\V_{{31}}&=V_{3}-V_{1}=(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 120^{\circ })-(V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 0^{\circ })\\&={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{\text{LN}}}\angle 150^{\circ }={\sqrt  {3}}V_{{3}}\angle (\phi _{{V_{3}}}+30^{\circ }).\\\end{aligned}}

(Φv1 is the phase shift for the first voltage, commonly taken to be 0° -- in this case Φv2 = -120° and Φv3 = -240° or 120°)

Further:

{\displaystyle I_{12}={\frac {V_{12}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (30^{\circ }-\theta ),} I_{{12}}={\frac  {V_{{12}}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (30^{\circ }-\theta ),
{\displaystyle I_{23}={\frac {V_{23}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (-90^{\circ }-\theta ),} I_{{23}}={\frac  {V_{{23}}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (-90^{\circ }-\theta ),
{\displaystyle I_{31}={\frac {V_{31}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (150^{\circ }-\theta ),} I_{{31}}={\frac  {V_{{31}}}{|Z_{\Delta }|}}\angle (150^{\circ }-\theta ),
where θ is the phase of delta impedance (ZΔ).

Relative angles are preserved, so I31 lags I23 lags I12 by 120°. Calculating line currents by using KCL at each delta node gives:

{\displaystyle {\begin{aligned}I_{1}&=I_{12}-I_{31}=I_{12}-I_{12}\angle 120^{\circ }\\&={\sqrt {3}}I_{12}\angle (\phi _{I_{12}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt {3}}I_{12}\angle (-\theta )\end{aligned}}} {\begin{aligned}I_{1}&=I_{{12}}-I_{{31}}=I_{{12}}-I_{{12}}\angle 120^{\circ }\\&={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{12}}\angle (\phi _{{I_{{12}}}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{12}}\angle (-\theta )\end{aligned}}
and similarly for each other line:

{\displaystyle I_{2}={\sqrt {3}}I_{23}\angle (\phi _{I_{23}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt {3}}I_{23}\angle (-120^{\circ }-\theta ),} I_{2}={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{23}}\angle (\phi _{{I_{{23}}}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{23}}\angle (-120^{\circ }-\theta ),
{\displaystyle I_{3}={\sqrt {3}}I_{31}\angle (\phi _{I_{31}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt {3}}I_{31}\angle (120^{\circ }-\theta ),} I_{3}={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{31}}\angle (\phi _{{I_{{31}}}}-30^{\circ })={\sqrt  {3}}I_{{31}}\angle (120^{\circ }-\theta ),
where, again, θ is the phase of delta impedance (ZΔ).


A delta configuration and a corresponding phasor diagram of its currents. Phase voltages are equal to line voltages, and currents are calculated as:
Ia = Iab - Ica = √3Iab∠-30°

Ib = Ibc - Iab

Ic = Ica - Ibc

The overall power transferred is

S3Φ = 3VphaseI*phase

Inspection of a phasor diagram, or conversion from phasor notation to complex notation, illuminates how the difference between two line-to-neutral voltages yields a line-to-line voltage that is greater by a factor of √3. As a delta configuration connects a load across phases of a transformer, it delivers the line-to-line voltage difference, which is √3 times greater than the line-to-neutral voltage delivered to a load in the wye configuration. As the power transferred is V2/Z, the impedance in the delta configuration must be 3 times what it would be in a wye configuration for the same power to be transferred.

I believe you are describing the wye configuration.

20 amps x 230 volts = 4.6Kw.
4.6Kw is about right for a refrigeration truck. But now reverse the calculation.
For the inverter output of 4.6Kw it needs 190 amps @24volts from the battery.

which is why I changed (later) the batteries to two banks of 48vdc the prototype had one bank of 4 in series to 48vdc. which is was over 980 amp hour capasity. which means at max i can discharge over 980 amps collectively @ 48 volts safely in one hour. but we don't need that do we. we only need 90 amps in this config. which equaled out to be about 3.5 hours straight run, with this config as we were running those 10-15 amp fansvx3 off straight off the batteries. got almost 8 cycling uit and fans at set point.

190 amps over four hours which you later extended to eight hours?

the 190 is what they were working with. I dropped that to 90 amps that first weekend, and then again dropped it to under 40 adc

This is not taking inverter losses into account.

3%

How big is this battery?

the first was a 8 AGM group 8D deep cycle marine. then we went to a proprietary battery the military company produced for the project. literally 1/3 the space 1/2 the weight. they simply called it the 'lithium solution' as it was not a lithium-ion it was lithium mixed with some sort of other compound.

then I told them I could double the efficiency (give them 8 hours for 1000 dollars more)

No, I'm not having it.

that's what the nasa guys said. (only looking at his half of the equation power retention and power supply.) the other 1/2 was unit efficiency. we reduced 45 amp ACD draw just by changing the fans. then we changed the refrigerant which changed the head pressure so instead of running 350/325 psig in the compressor we dropped to 175 to 150 psig. Plus it cooled faster less noise and less discharge heat! and yet was able to still maintain the 35*F the customer needed for his product.

by Dropping the head pressure by half. we dropped the power consumption by half.

This is what gave us the ability to charge and run the unit at the same time. Because we were running the unit power through the inverter and it would take all the power just to run the unit. now we split power 1/2 went to the unit the other 1/2 was all that was needed to maximize the battery recharge.

The next big hurdel was we were using a very expensive Variable frequency drive to ramp the compressor up. but because we dropped the amps needed we switched over to a soft start. another huge savings.

they wrote me a check I promptly order a 75.00 part changed the refrigerat and the oil to a mid grade gas, and it pulled to temp twice as fast and ran on the same batteries for almost 8 hours continually. They could not believe it.

Neither can I.
The $75 part would be for the expansion valve and you changed the oil from a mineral oil to a synthetic polyolester oil. Mid grade gas??? This is new to me.

1993 called.. they want their refrigerants back.
This is the secret in the sauce baby, I can't tell you exactly what i used but I can give you an example that would yield the exact same result using your 1990's refrigerants..

Let's say you had a system that was pulling 20 amps using r-22.. now let say you want to go off grid and do the same job, but cut your power. so then I come along change your TXV change and flush the oil (by using a compatible blend/in refrigeration we use a simple conversion chart to tell us what will work with what.) then change the drier evac over night with fresh oil in your pump, static charge with N2, evac again for .5 hours and charge with your lower pressure refrigerant. something like 134a. which again cuts your head pressure fro 350 to 150. that 2/3 cut in pressure = a literal 2/3 cut in power consumption. the only problem you would have in a house configuration is the loss of capacity. now if you had a 5 ton system and a house that only needed a three ton system you would be fine. how ever in a 3 ton system the loss of entropy/pressure in the refrigerant would = about a 15% loss in capacity. and the ability for low temp applications.

You mean the HFC refrigerant was pulled out and replaced with an HCFC or an HFO?
This is the reason for switching to synthetic oil, mineral oil in a HCFC system turns to glue and the system is fubar. So far so good.

Never heard of a flush?
not talking about some doofus and a funnel with an air hose. I'm talking about hooking up a machine that by passes the compressor and the txv, that uses high pressure high volume to flush out a burn or in this case out all the old oil. and an acid filter drier and you can clean out the goo your thinking about as well.

What did you pull out, R134a, R404a? What did you replace it with, R513a?

secret is in the sauce. again imagine the pressure drop between 404a and 134a, same thing. (little less but you get the point)

Not that it matters. You claim to have pulled to temp twice as fast and at the same time doubled the battery life.

In the truck refrigeration business 404a is used for low temp applications, and 134a in med temp applications. if you understood how these two refrigerant compared to each other you would also understand that 134a is referred to as a med temp application refrigerat. meaning it really starts to cool between 60*F and 32*F in that bracket it will cool about 6 degrees of temp change in one minute with out standard refrigerated box build out. Now SAME EXACT SYSTEM built with 404a will cool between 60 and 35*F about 2 to 3 degrees per minute. 404a does not come into it's power band till below freezing, where 134a pressure drops to 0 psig after 32*F 404a is just coming into it's own. from this point 404 will pull 4 to 5 *F per minute.

What does this mean? to 35*F 134 uses 1/2 the energy and take 1/2 the time than 404a. 404 below freezing then becomes the king while 134a stops cooling all together.

You didn't double the efficiency you quadrupled it! And you did all this with the same compressor, the same condenser and the same evaporator? How come in all my years as a refrigeration technician I haven't encountered this remarkable development?    

ugabuga, because you not smart like God.

Laws of thermodynamics says... NO!

that the difference between HVAC and refrigeration sport! I'm a refrigeration engineer and you maybe a good ac mechanic. engineers play with the things you do not understand or misunderstand like the laws of thermodynamics all the time. You are told procedure and how to change parts, and very few of you can venture past those procedures without catastrophic results.

Again let talk 134a and 404a as the pressures are similar.
If a 404a system has the same compressor, same condenser and same evap as a system with 134a the only differences being oil, txv and orifice size (134a usually needing to be 1.45:1 off of 404a) the 134a system will indeed cool faster to 32*F, but the 404a system will get colder. 134a expends all of it's energy up front while the higher pressure gas expends it's refrigeration energy below freezing. that is why 404a take twice the energy to compress and has 2xs the head pressure. (large power reserve at low temp=higher pressure at lower temp)

but don't take my word for it here is a competitor's refrigeration unit brochure that shows same unit same condenser and evap with same compressor with two completely different btu rating and applications.
https://www.na.thermoking.com/content/da..._Sheet.pdf
(don't want anyone accusing me of trying to sell product here)
Look at the second page the comparison between the v-320 and the v-320max
There is about 15% differential at the point where 404a picks up and starts to cool better than 134a, then note the 134a system/v-320 just stops, and TK locks out usage below 25*F because the system at that point would be in a vacuum.

Again same unit, same compressor, same condenser same evap. different txv different orifice.

If you are not familiar with 134a/404a pressures here is a pt chart link:
https://trutecsuspension.com/410a-pt-cha...-pressure/

@35*F 134a=30.3 psig
@35*F 404a=78.1 psig
Can you see that is less that 1/2 the pressure? running through the compressor the head pressure is also 1/2, which means 1/2 the energy use.

In the same insulated space this means the difference in pull down (134a faster) and lower bottom temp (404a colder/0*F)

so the sold 5 to test market in NYC home food distributor who was being fined a million dollars a WEEK because the refrigeration systems they were using were breaking the noise/time restrictions in manhattan.

Rubbish. Decent Carrier or Sanyo truck mounted systems  are pretty quiet.

https://www.dnainfo.com/20101213/upper-w...uch-noise/

The line "it's been a year since the promised newer quieter trucks" were the prototypes I was helping to build. the trucks themselves were all electric and the unit also had to be all electric. the truck was a proven tech, the unit was in development for some time before I was brought on.

So the total cost was 375 if your keeping count. at the end I told the guys this and they said money well spent/keep it.

This development of yours should have made you a billionaire overnight. Did it?

billion with a b... no but it did change my life and my business completely. sold my interest to the nyc company servicing these trucks. I haven't had anything to do with these vans since...13 or 14 maybe. ( i did a one time cash out as i had no confidence in the engineers taking over my project) If i had taken a percentage I would have to take an active role in the trucks which means trips to NYC. So.. I said show me the money!! A week later my wife and niece and I spent a week in NYC in a b&B on the upper west side in the middle of "seinfeld's neighborhood." went to toms, the big fruit stand the soup nazi, saw shows and went to the park (never spent that much time out of the dungeons.

In april of 14 moved into 25,000 ft AC shop, we are currently employing 15 people building our standard refrigerated systems and liners. not to mention opened a retail car lot as well as a commercial car sales for the refrigerated van sales. just had a house built on some land I bought instead of going to collage. and we just had a pool put in... so yeah changed my life. Also note it was during the same time period I first signed up here and started my ministry with you all. If you were to go back and look, I would make little remarks like moving day or going to NYC to make a big deal or something to commemorate the moment without going into detail. Always thought I was bragging too much. but then someone told me to share my light and life story as it seems a little to gumpish to be real, but here you are anyway. I can only attribute this to God.. while other who seek to desperatly dismiss what they don't want to have to account for see it as luck.

I also had a skype conversation with a few of the members here showing them my shop, the refrigeration systems we do build, and the general lay out. Be happy to do the same for you or if you want a personal tour let me know next time your in orlando.

...if you want to come to orlando to vet my story I can take you to all the places and people mentioned.

No, just show me the patents.

Again my patent was a sold. which means all my work and folders notes and files when in with the deal. I been told not to share my purchase paperwork. (too many active details) I can probably dig out the legal zoom letters I use to draw out and personally fill out all the paper work and file. I think the last letter was a congratulation letter which gives the patent numbers which again has since been sold and rolled into the whole project. I do have a whole host of emails that show every painful step. and a form letter that shows 16 potential conflicts on #1 and 17 potential conflicts on #2.

Or again you can see the net result of the sale.

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I'm wondering if there is something about theistic conditioning that makes believers re-write history in their mind. Drich is doing it here and I've seen him do it before.

I wonder if there is something about atheism that has peope sight examples of behaivor without actually providing proof? oh, that's right it is call ad hoc attack, meaning it is a destroy the messenger method of attack so that one does not have to address the message,

If you have any real world examples please provide where I give a conflicting account.

But rather than just think that it's a characteristic of Drich

And I think you spend too much time wrongly accusing people of things you know not to be true.

, I'm wondering if it's a habit theists fall into because they learn to attribute everything to their god. The reason I am wondering this is because I met up with my religionist brother recently and found out that he had manipulated me into helping him write his xtian propaganda to give to atheists.

So your mad at your brother for tricking you so I must be as well, but you don't have any specific to share.. I just must be lying because my story sound too much like godly intervention and you have nothing else but to call me a liar.

He originally told me that his essay was for a discussion forum so I gave him enough advice so that atheists would actually read it and discuss it. But then I found out that he was turning it into a booklet and he claimed that it was always intended to be the case. Which is clearly bullshit because he kept telling me that it's meant to be controversial, but why hand over a booklet which will just immensely piss off the receiver? But he seems to believe his new version of history. He's never been manipulative in the past so this took me by surprise. As far as I'm concerned I can't trust him again. It did piss me off though because I am morally opposed to deliberately spreading of ignorance.

Religion is a foul insidious thing.

what eves..
brother used your own vanity against you =/= Drich is a liar, what else you got sport?

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Interesting story above. IMO you don't give yourself enough credit for your achievements... IMO it was your own determination, ingenuity, and intuition that has led to the success of your business and inventions.

Here's the thing... You know when an idea is yours... and you know when you watch something that gives you an idea or an understanding that you did not previously understand. When I started sketching I was given like an instruction to sketch a relay as I was focused on make out all the electrical detail I was given another component, and another and another and another till I had a page of them then I took a red marker and it was like playing connect the dots. I highlighted dots and connected allowing for correct circuit spacing and intersections. then picked up a green pen did the same and a black, each corresponding to a different time or usage of a circuit. when I was done the problem was complete. I looked at it and was like how the hell did this just happen. then I slide it across the table (something I would never do) to the main guy and said this should work. Then barely understanding what I did I had to explain it. This happened one other time when I was given an understanding of how evolution and creation could be made to work seamlessly together. However in this case I could not check anything. I just trusted the work, and like i said the egg heads bounced their doubts off of it for sometime and like here I answered everything even if they did not think it would work or want to hear it. When the idea is yours you know it when it comes from someplace else you know that too. it is hard to explain.

And you're always saying you didn't do well at school but so what? Some people are better with their hands. And the fact that you self-taught yourself loads of stuff only shows more your determination... something to be admired.

Again when it was time, it was like someone turned on a switch. not that I refigured out the english language on my own or invented geometry or algerbra for myself. it was like I knew nothing found God, and he turn on what was missing/healed me of my retardedness if you will (was literally in Learning Disabled classes from the start till I finished.)

And I can't remember exactly what you said but it was a friend? of yours that gave you some money, which you saw as an answer to prayer and/or prophecy?

A stranger a man I had met only in passing could not describe gave me a 25K dollar loan. I did work for his company, but never met the owner before.

Like you working for starbucks and the owner of a coffee bean supplier who your store buys from gives you money to set up your own store. Not because you deserved it but because He was lead to/felt the need to.. 17 years ago comming off 9-11 25K investment when everything was gong south was a very big deal. especially to a 26 year old who you didn't even know.

Did he give it to you as a gift or was he investing in your business?

no intrest loan, could not charge him labor but fair mark up on parts. took less than a year to pay him back.

Either way I think this time you're not giving your friend enough credit...

again this man was a stranger. I did not even know his name.

if you attribute it to God. My guess is he saw your potential and determination...

Could be. But It's not about how God get people like that to work with us that is amazing, it is about living a lifetime where little things like that happens almost every day. Once twice a years is off the chart for most people. Imagine getting to see little miracles like this every day... It's hard not to attribute those thing s to God. I could not imagine how hard life would be if I had to make it on my own.

My uncle was the hardest working man I ever knew you know what hard work and 40 years of determination got him? broken back followed by 2 strokes and several heart attacks.. just pushed himself too hard for too long till his body quit. Again I've worked like that too, I know what hard work is.. what I am doing now isn't. it all just comes to me. look at how much time I spend with you all while I have a shop buzzing about. Again not a leader not a business man I just do things the way I want them done. I just practice what I preach and we have much to show for it. Again as a gift from God, not because i deserve it.

like if you went on The Apprentice with the attitude and determination you've described, I bet Alan Sugar would snap you up in a heartbeat.

I watch youtube videos on how to raise bees and butcher you own live stock now, (we got chickens and can't decide what is next)

Not to mention I can't see how you can attribute the actions of your friend to God anyway, given that he gave it to you out of his own free will which, under your system, God doesn't mess with.

At the time again never met the guy. we became friends later after I repaid him, and he later died.. his wife had a refrigeration rental ompany we promised to work on labor free (like the old deal we had so long as she kept the company)

And as for your innovations, did you understand the ideas that came to you? If you did, that just shows subconscious intuition in progress... your brain working behind the scenes putting the pieces together, ready for a light bulb moment.

IMO it's all you.

Again maybe. then again I've had idea some pan out other do not. This one was perfect out of the gate we only added to the initial construct we never changed anything. and like I said you know when an idea was yours.. but like here sometimes God takes over and all I'm left to do is try and spell out what he is giving me.

Ever produce something self consciously that mirrored the bible in 10 different ways and not know it till you go back and look up the passages you just wrote down?

Again there is a difference between having an idea come out of your head then watching something and learning as you go. This was a total learning experience for me.

[Drich]

because they are not benefits as you see them. they are means to an end another responsibility another 'test' to mke you ready for the next level.

I started my business it was just me and I could even afford to pay my wife part time. so she worked for free off the books. then I was privy to 'lots of benefits' which required lots of works self sacrifice pain and loss. which prompted me for the next level of hard work, pain and loss. and so on it goes. Yes there is benefit, but in the end you know none of this belongs to you and can be ask back at any moment. why because you are a servant, not one being serviced by a genie.

Uhuh, but people from any other religion can report the same benefits. So either god hands them out to people who are even in the wrong religion; or else god isn't involved at all.

you don't know those other religions very well do you?

[Godscreated]

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is.

Typical religious binary thinking.

What is Truth?

The only thing it can be is what happens in reality versus what we perceive or think happens.

The best way of determining the nature of reality is the scientific method. And this uses evidence.

Thing is, many things happen differently depending on what environment you are in.

There are very few things that are universally true. For example, the laws of thermodynamics, the speed of light etc

All of these universal truths contradict the existence of an eternal and intelligent god that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and able to love.

 There are more lies told in the scientific community than one could count and why to promote science as infallible and it's not. Protecting something through lies is disgraceful and in the end makes science look cheap. Nothing that is real science contradict anything about God, so you can just throw that argument out the door, many scientist have tried that argument and then can't dismiss God with their knowledge. There are many truths out side of science that are universal, the world does not revolve around science even though you may believe so. Truth is something that can stand the test of time, unchanging and unchangeable. The ultimate truth is God himself.

GC

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PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

Physician, heal thyself.

I was answering the post as it was presented and then made a statement that I haven't the time to continue such long posts, but them i would not expect you to be able to understand.

GC