Can God love?

[*Deidre*]

And people think Wiccans are out there 

[emjay]

Er... awkward But maybe I just wanted to have a discussion rather an argument, because I'm actually interested in the subject and it's new to me... and there's no point if we're talking about different things.

Anyway, what did I get right? I don't hear that very often

You;re not going to get a "conversation" out of Drich, lol. Heres here to fish for souls by telling you you;re wrong about everything.

Eros.  It actually is the desire of value and the seeking out of value or transcendent beauty..at least in it;s classical conception. In point of fact..eros -is- love.  The other categories, like philia...that was friendship.  Agape...good will and benevolence.  When Drich thinks eros he thinks titties....but thats not actually what it was envisioned as, even if it included that as the very lowest form of eros.  Of the body driving the eros car rather than the soul doing so.

Well yeah, I know he's here to preach, and how he goes about it, but my interest here was in understanding these three terms - eros, agape, and philia - in reference to love in general and the question of the OP. So on that score I was interested in his, or anyone else's, perspectives on those three terms... to supplement and/or correct my own understanding from reading the book. So since he tends to talk about agape a lot, there was no reason not to think he wouldn't be knowledgeable about the subject, what it's defined as at least. Just as you are, and just as I welcome your perspective as well. After all, both of your descriptions of the three seem pretty similar, except for his focus on the erotic of eros... but if that's how he uses the term, then so be it... that's his perspective... all to be weighed into the final analysis so to speak. But since I don't see it like that... ie as erotic only... and neither do you apparently... but instead (now... following my 'gross misunderstanding') see it as strictly about egocentric, but not 'othercentric', value-seeking of any kind (which still may be wrong... but that's where I'm up to with my understanding)... it means than in order to have a fruitful discussion with him I need to either reformulate my questions in his usage of the terms, or reformulate them without use of the terms at all... or at least not with the contentious eros, since the only alternative is us talking past each other using different definitions. In other words that's probably the end of the discussion for now... just need to keep on reading.

[The Grand Nudger]

But since I don't see it like that... ie as erotic only... and neither do you apparently... but instead (now... following my 'gross misunderstanding') see it as strictly about egocentric, but not 'othercentric', value-seeking of any kind (which still may be wrong... but that's where I'm up to with my understanding)... it means than in order to have a fruitful discussion with him I need to either reformulate my questions in his usage of the terms, or reformulate them without use of the terms at all... or at least not with the contentious eros, since the only alternative is us talking past each other using different definitions. In other words that's probably the end of the discussion for now... just need to keep on reading.

"Otherseeking" would be storge.  It gets lost as people focus on the other three.  Natural affection and empathy.  The exclusive otherseeking value.

It;s a pretty simple breakdown (particularly for all the ink spilt on account of it).  

Eros-Love
Philia-Friendship
Storge-Empathy
Agape-Benevolence

The question for drich would be - Is god benevolent? Magic hateball says no, lol.

[emjay]

But since I don't see it like that... ie as erotic only... and neither do you apparently... but instead (now... following my 'gross misunderstanding') see it as strictly about egocentric, but not 'othercentric', value-seeking of any kind (which still may be wrong... but that's where I'm up to with my understanding)... it means than in order to have a fruitful discussion with him I need to either reformulate my questions in his usage of the terms, or reformulate them without use of the terms at all... or at least not with the contentious eros, since the only alternative is us talking past each other using different definitions. In other words that's probably the end of the discussion for now... just need to keep on reading.

"Otherseeking" would be storge.  It gets lost as people focus on the other three.  Natural affection and empathy.  The exclusive otherseeking value.  

It;s a pretty simple breakdown (particularly for all the ink spilt on account of it).  

Eros-Love
Philia-Friendship
Storge-Empathy
Agape-Benevolence

The question for drich would be - Is god benevolent?   Magic hateball says no, lol.  

Cool, thanks for that - another one to look into

Unfortunately I rarely do simple I'm in full blown overthinking mode on this... analytical, reductionistic mode... which is my tendency in life and both a blessing and a curse Ie the book I'm reading is full of x's and y's and that's how I like it

[The Grand Nudger]

I prefer the x;s and o;s, lol.
(que the base)

[emjay]

I prefer the x;s and o;s, lol.
(que the base)

Okay, you've completely lost me Unless you're talking about the game 'noughts and crosses' (or in American 'Tic Tac Toe')... but I doubt you are?

[The Grand Nudger]

[emjay]

Okay... well I never would have guessed that... catchy song but never heard of her

[Godscreated]

Who said God would love you "if," not one Christian here has said that, so why don't you just get on with some response that addresses what we are saying instead of blaming us and God because you do not feel loved.

Goodness for someone who has spent so much time on these forums you are are lacking understanding, we are dealing with the concept of god's love if a god exists, we are not blaming either you or your non existent god.  I also don't feel unloved by Odin, or Thor !

Odin and Thor are non-existent so why would you feel loved by them. I'm not stupid I know that this is a conversation about if God exists as far as the atheist are concerned. You do not know what might be going through her mind/heart now do you. As far as God being non-existent, you have yet to establish such a claim. 

man has put himself outside of God's presence and it has to be man's choice to return and God has given us a way to do just that, if you do not accept it that is your fault not God's.

So there is an 'if' after all .. oh and a 'it's your fault'

There is no if, either you accept or you do not, it's all up to you. Look at the bold if by me, I us that word to make the statement more acceptable to atheist, but I fixed it and it still reads the same. You reject God that is your fault and a terrible fault it will be, see no if.

God paid a terrible price to redeem man and that price was and is agape love.

What a retarded concept for a god who supposedly could simply forgive.

What makes you believe God can simply forgive sin, because you say so, not hardly. Sin will only be forgiven for those who have remorse over their sin and to do so one must understand what sin is and I've yet to speak to an atheist who knows why sin is sin. By the way what God did is your only hope for eternal life, other wise it will be eternal punishment.

Because man placed a barrier between himself and God don't you think that it's man's responsibility

Another 'if' we do this or that... with a throw in  of 'it's your fault'

Now your just being childish, there's no if to it and it was a question to be answered by the one I posted to, not for a nosy busy body to come along and defect from the discussion.

we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us and if you refuse this gift it's your loss.

And yet another 'if' you...  and it's your fault

Same as above the bold if by me. leaving out the if doesn't change the fact and it makes it sound as if there is no hope. Why did you jump into this conversation anyway, nothing better to do that to show your ignorance of God would be my guess.

acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world.

Another 'if'

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory, I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all. 

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

Another 'if' you.. and it's your fault
(I see a pattern here)

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind. The real pattern here is you can do nothing other than be derogatory about a conversation that wasn't even directed at you, nosy. No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

I could love some lady I've known for many years and yet she would never actualize my love until she responded to it, if you do not respond to God's love then you will never actualize it,

Another 'if' you ....
Surely though you would make your love known to her in a discernable real life way before you expect her to respond?

That was implied, sorry you are so carried away with your degradation that you are blind to what's being said, but then that would be your fault. Again I eliminated the if and the statement is the same. The if is to make a kinder feeling. You can't understand such a concept though because all you know how to do is blindly follow your ifs.

How is it you can define what God's love is and does, you've never wanted it,

Well accepting love from anon existent deity who's presence is exactly the same as no god at all is difficult yes, you will have to forgive for not having the same fantasy as you... and sighs, yet another 'it's your fault'

I did not say it was her fault, I said she doesn't want something that has been offered, please try and understand an entire conversation before you blatantly try to derail the conversation, a trick of children. Again you have not established God doesn't exist or that He is a fantasy. Because you are blind to the existence of God doesn't mean He isn't real and waiting on you to respond to the love He has already given you.

you also are trying to understand a physical love and God's love isn't like that it goes much deeper, beyond understanding... until you accept it.

So if it's beyond understanding how do you understand it. ?
Isn't that exactly the same as saying 'if you believe, then you will believe'
and yes you got it.. yet another 'if' you...

I've accepted it, you bold the answer why couldn't you see it, shame, shame second grade understanding that is.
No when one believes they know. More ifs from you, only in a derogatory way.
No if in that statement, you are so if crazy you are seeing things, help may be in order for you. It is a completely positive statement and has a result in choice one way or the other and there is no if about it.

God is not required to embrace you with His love, until you accept it and then it will never leave you.

Again 'if' you...

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

You also can't escape God's love for you because He has done everything to bring you into a relationship with you,

Not what you said before, apparently we can escape god's love, unless being in god's love is being tortured for  eternity.

I'm speaking of the present and you have jumped to a future possibility, why, my guess to derail the conversation or show how foolish you are about God. By the way when arguing against what God says please use the correct terminology. No where in the scriptures is hell described as torture, that is your incorrect interpretation of what hell is.

acceptance of that love by you is all that's left to do. He want force love on you because forced love is no love at all and a relational love requires two, One has the love and the other seems to be pushing it away, making every excuse to keep it at bay, it's your love that's missing, it is your love that is missing.

Another 'if' you.. and a very definite 'it's your fault'

if you had a brain and if you could then possibly come to understand what the whole conversation was about, you might be able to have a conversation that consists of something other than if, you whole idea of the conversation is iffy at best. That should be enough ifs to last you a few days.  

Unconditional love is not 'forced' I can choose to be kind and forgive without forcing my love on anyone, the love i have is about me not others. You have a very backward idea of what love is. also I would add  threatening people with  eternal torment is pretty much forced love, wouldn't you. ?

Now go back and reread what I said, for goodness sake get one thing right and stop your elementary quipping. Did I not say that God never forces His love onto anyone. There's your problem, selfishness, loving yourself over others. Love is for others and it is the only way you can have a happy life, loving yourself is a lonely life while loving others brings great things into one's life. Me have a backward idea of love and your the one who claims to love yourself over others, give me a break child. There is no threat of hell, there is however an invitation to eternal life abundant. Rejecting that wonderful life as a consequence, when you reject something you must go in a different direction by necessity. You spout things like a true atheist and your spouting has no merit whatsoever because you have never tried to come to an understanding of God, as you said your love is for yourself and no one else.

Seriously if you start your post with a misunderstanding of the atheist position then the rest is simply gobbleygook, maybe if christians reflected  this unconditional deeper, beyond understanding love to the word then you would give us cause to believe at least in your religion, even if not your non existent god.  I don't even think you realise how much you repeat the same mantra over and over again, classic sign of a cult.

I did not start my post with such a misunderstanding, you wanted to read it that way and that is what you got, you have no idea what the conversation was about, you cared only about nonexistent if that you wanted to pertain to conditions and not one of those if were conditional. It's one way or the other with no ifs involved. Me repeating a mantra, your the one obsessed with the if and one that only existed in your mind not my conversation with another. Your whole purpose is to derail a conversation because you did not like what you read, something that wasn't intended for you in the first place. Christians who care will not sugar coat reality, that would be dishonest. So in being honest we are showing our love, do you really believe I would have stayed here this long and not care about those I speak to, unlike you who speaks at people I speak to them, giving them reason to consider. I have no control over what they decide nor the finial destination, that's between them and God, I can only tell people what the Bible says, you know the Word of God.
 

All this is is another brainwashed, deceptive post on why god is exactly the same as no god at all. Christians.. excuse makers for at the last 2,000 years.

*Bold mine*

 I have been honest and made good points from a reasonable position about God's love for a person who has questioned that love, you never addressed the theme of the conversation and did your best to eliminate the real subject with all your ifs. Your blindness of the scriptures and Jesus may cost you in the future, this is no threat, only you can pay the cost of rejection, for me Christ has already payed my price and I praise Him for that.

GC

[possibletarian]

Odin and Thor are non-existent so why would you feel loved by them. I'm not stupid

That's exactly the same reason that i don't feel unloved by your god, it was your claim that atheists felt unloved (by your god), I was merely pointing out to you how silly that was.

I know that this is a conversation about if God exists as far as the atheist are concerned. You do not know what might be going through her mind/heart now do you. As far as God being non-existent, you have yet to establish such a claim. 

Then why have labels at all ? If you are going to say they mean nothing because a particular person may be having other thoughts at any particular time.
And I don't need to prove that god is non existent, just like you have not proven Odin or Thor do not exist, even when given a whole thread to do so by Mathilda using your own logic.  You are making the positive claim, you provide the proof.

man has put himself outside of God's presence and it has to be man's choice to return and God has given us a way to do just that, if you do not accept it that is your fault not God's.

Again you simply repeat the mantra  .. you need to do this or that , and it's your fault.

There is no if, either you accept or you do not, it's all up to you. Look at the bold if by me, I us that word to make the statement more acceptable to atheist, but I fixed it and it still reads the same. You reject God that is your fault and a terrible fault it will be, see no if.

That is an 'if' (i.e. you need to do this or that) another it's your fault, sprinkled with a hint of threat, like father like son hey

What makes you believe God can simply forgive sin, because you say so, not hardly.

Why can't god a god who can  do anything simply forgive, have you even thought it through ?

Sin will only be forgiven for those who have remorse over their sin and to do so one must understand what sin is and I've yet to speak to an atheist who knows why sin is sin. By the way what God did is your only hope for eternal life, other wise it will be eternal punishment.

And here we go again, an 'if' you do this or that, followed by a 'you don't understand' , maybe you could open a thread about sin telling us what we don't understand ?  And of course the inevitable (but entirely predictable) threat of eternal punishment.

Because man placed a barrier between himself and God don't you think that it's man's responsibility

And what father allows that barrier to stand ?

Now your just being childish, there's no if to it and it was a question to be answered by the one I posted to, not for a nosy busy body to come along and defect from the discussion.

Great so I don't have to do anything then, god will simply forgive me

we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us and if you refuse this gift it's your loss.

Whoaa hang on, if fact there is an 'if' I have to do something... followed of course by threats (there is definitely a pattern to your writing)

Same as above the bold if by me. leaving out the if doesn't change the fact and it makes it sound as if there is no hope. Why did you jump into this conversation anyway, nothing better to do that to show your ignorance of God would be my guess.

Ermm okay, though in my defence it's hard to have knowledge about a god that is the same as no god.

acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world.

Ahh another 'if' you do this or that' .. no death threats this time, well done.

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory, I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all.

Shakes head, we are talking about how god can't love right ? just showing you that merely proclaiming it in the face of threats is not love.  

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

Well like most ex-christians on this board, we experienced what at the time we thought was god's mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable  love, but alas it just turned out to be brainwashing. The feeling is though speaking to people of other faiths and religious practices is not limited to christianity, it's all in the head.

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind.

No I'm pretty sure you have very definite pattern along the lines of ..  

1) if you do this or that  
2) it's your fault
3) you are going to suffer terribly

The real pattern here is you can do nothing other than be derogatory about a conversation that wasn't even directed at you, nosy.

It's an open forum silly, i mean really you do know anyone can read or respond in the open section ?

No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

Okay Mr believer in talking donkeys, Flying chariots, Talking serpents, men living in mammals for three days.. got ya

That was implied, sorry you are so carried away with your degradation that you are blind to what's being said, but then that would be your fault. Again I eliminated the if and the statement is the same. The if is to make a kinder feeling. You can't understand such a concept though because all you know how to do is blindly follow your ifs.

Then if it was implied, why compare it to god's supposed love ?  The lady in question would have no doubt that..

1) You existed
2) That you loved her by showing a display of that love

One would have thought that if god truly loves and is capable of love, that he would show that love in a clear way, in no way is it comparable, unless of course you court this lady by being invisible,  untouchable, unfathomable, and give death threats is she does not love you back. Then toss in eternal torment as an aside.

How is it you can define what God's love is and does, you've never wanted it,

I'm not trying to define it at all, that's the point, gods love simply does not exists it's a man made construct. The unfathomable, spiritual, and you have to believe it's true before it's true, is simply a way of trying to explain why a god who can do anything, is love.. is exactly the same as no god at all.

I did not say it was her fault, I said she doesn't want something that has been offered, please try and understand an entire conversation before you blatantly try to derail the conversation, a trick of children. Again you have not established God doesn't exist or that He is a fantasy. Because you are blind to the existence of God doesn't mean He isn't real and waiting on you to respond to the love He has already given you.

Yes but again in your example she knows you exists, in fact you have made that blatantly obvious, and you have made your love clear in an understandable way.  I doubt she would be as understanding if you had your brutally murdered your son and then claimed you loved her, and tossed in eternal torment as the alternative.

I've accepted it, you bold the answer why couldn't you see it, shame, shame second grade understanding that is.
No when one believes they know. More ifs from you, only in a derogatory way.
No if in that statement, you are so if crazy you are seeing things, help may be in order for you. It is a completely positive statement and has a result in choice one way or the other and there is no if about it.

What's with this positive statement thing ? Sure (in theology) we have to make a choice but isn't that an 'if' we make a choice i.e.: 'If' we do this or that.  In other words god's love is never realised unless we (who cannot do anything) actually do something ?
So it's conditional there is no other way to dress it up.

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

And yet again the threats !

I'm speaking of the present and you have jumped to a future possibility,

And yet you bring it up all the time (hell)

why, my guess to derail the conversation or show how foolish you are about God.

Yes like I'm foolish about Thor and Odin.

By the way when arguing against what God says please use the correct terminology. No where in the scriptures is hell described as torture, that is your incorrect interpretation of what hell is.

So if I were to create a place to throw someone (god forbid) into a blazing furnace, a place where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
and  tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,

That does not cut it as torture for you ?

if you had a brain and if you could then possibly come to understand what the whole conversation was aboutAhh the insults and accusations
you might be able to have a conversation that consists of something other than if, you whole idea of the conversation is iffy at best. That should be enough ifs to last you a few days.

Deja vu   

I did not start my post with such a misunderstanding, you wanted to read it that way and that is what you got, you have no idea what the conversation was about, you cared only about nonexistent if that you wanted to pertain to conditions and not one of those if were conditional. It's one way or the other with no ifs involved. Me repeating a mantra, your the one obsessed with the if and one that only existed in your mind not my conversation with another. Your whole purpose is to derail a conversation because you did not like what you read, something that wasn't intended for you in the first place. Christians who care will not sugar coat reality, that would be dishonest. So in being honest we are showing our love, do you really believe I would have stayed here this long and not care about those I speak to, unlike you who speaks at people I speak to them, giving them reason to consider. I have no control over what they decide nor the finial destination, that's between them and God, I can only tell people what the Bible says, you know the Word of God.

Yes we know you repeat what you believe scripture to say, your regurgitation of your theology and scripture (which as many different sects of christianty would show) is not the same thing at all, I'm willing to grant that you believe because you believe, I'm really asking why we should?
 

 I have been honest and made good points from a reasonable position about God's love for a person who has questioned that love, you never addressed the theme of the conversation and did your best to eliminate the real subject with all your ifs. Your blindness of the scriptures and Jesus may cost you in the future, this is no threat, only you can pay the cost of rejection, for me Christ has already payed my price and I praise Him for that.

And again *bold mine* the non threat threat !, it's become so ingrained in you that you don't even realise that you are doing it.
I believe that you believe you are being honest, I don't have a problem believing that you believe, any more than I doubt a Muslim, J.W. Buddhist..... etc also believes.   I'm asking for a good reason for me to believe.