Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2

[vorlon13]

I'd be willingly subjugated for a while . . .

[RoadRunner79]

It seems that for the left lately, that they are not against discrimination at all.  It is all about who is being discriminated against.  They even promote it, when it is against someone that they don't like.  They point to the law only when it is on their side, and condemn it when it is not.  You say you are for freedom of speech, but despite the false narrative, that is what this baker is claiming.   That it is not about who, but what and why he is refusing a specific job, that conveys a specific message.

So - hypothetically - if this same baker were to refuse to craft a cake for a black wedding, claiming that he interprets the Bible in such a way as to believe that black people are subhuman and anathema to God - you would support him on this being a free speech issue?

Boru

I don’t think that anyone is saying that anyone else is “sub-human” in this case (nor am I).

And I think that we should be very slow to have the state dictating what is conscionable for a person. I also think as (I have stated before) that one would have a difficult case making this argument on the grounds of the history of the Christian faith and the Bible. It may have been tried at times, but it has no foundation holding it up.

It’s also, not about discriminating against the person. As you seem to try to make it to be.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's not difficult at all, in fact, the case was made and tried and the supreme court said fuck off. It didn't say fuck off that's not christianity, it said fuck off -with- that christianity. That's why bigoted christians are trying the free speech grift, the free religion grift was explicitly closed to them.

[bennyboy]

I don't think the motive of the cake should matter at all. It's probably true that the customer who goes to that specific bakeshop is trying to stir shit up, but so is the bake shop.

Motive for having a cake should be irrelevant. I was split on this issue before, because I don't necessarily think you should be able to force goods and services from unwilling people, but what, do you need to fill out a correct form to get a cake? The motive of you ordering a cake shouldn't matter. I'm almost certain these people would deny Atheist weddings a cake. What else could be more against their religious beliefs? I grew up in a small town with a single baker, local monopolies like that exist everywhere and that means that whole groups of people will be denied access to certain goods or services. Do we need a seperate baker for each religion in each town? Seems ridiculous.

They can have cake. They just can't have a custom made cake. The shop also doesn't do Halloween cakes.

I don't see that an artist should be forced to create anything that is asked of him. That's ridiculous.

Well, Halloween cakes have images on them that hint at idolatry and demon worship.

What images go on a transgender cake?  Dildos and nipple clamps?  Cuz if that bastard was trying to make the poor cake shop draw pictures of dildos and nipple clamps, then I wouldn't blame them for having a problem with doing that!

[robvalue]

As far as I can see, the requested cake didn't inherently contain any sort of message. If she had just asked for the same cake without saying why, would he have made it then? Can it really be taken into account who the customer is and what the cake means to them specifically?

I don't get why he didn't simply decline the custom order, without giving a reason. It appears he was the one bringing transgender issues into the fold, when there was no need to.

Could he have said, "Ask for it again, but this time don't tell me why you want it." Then he could make it.

[Amarok]

Saying one write a specific  message on a cake is not imposing on them and people comparing writing gay marriage etc to racism or white supremacy is absurd as those two categories are night and day.

[robvalue]

I agree, that is absurd. If you're such a pathetic bigoted piece of shit that you think your cakes represent some kind of divine morality, then you shouldn't be a baker in the first place.

Apparently he said to the gay couple that they could buy any other kind of cake. How does this work, from a religious perspective? How does he get from "kill gays" in the bible, to "gays can have any cake they want except a wedding cake"? Moron.

Anyhow. I thought it would be funny if me and my transgender mate go in, and order exactly the same cake each, except my mate says how important it is to them and their transition. I just ask for the cake, after the baker is done giving his speech about why he can't serve my mate. What does he do?

[Joods]

The shop owner is an idiot who obviously doesn't have much business sense. He should have just made the cake. Neither the woman nor the cake was infringing on his right to practice his religious beliefs. Neither the customer nor the cake were preventing him from praying, attending the church of his choice, talking with a member of clergy, teaching others about his religion, worshipping his god, or receiving communion. It was simply a cake that someone wanted made and this nutjob is clearly in the wrong business if he allows his religion to undermine the sole purpose of his business. I hope people get the shits of this guy and stop giving him business. Maybe when he can't pay his bills due to lack of income from having zero customers, he might come to his senses. I highly doubt it though.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

So - hypothetically - if this same baker were to refuse to craft a cake for a black wedding, claiming that he interprets the Bible in such a way as to believe that black people are subhuman and anathema to God - you would support him on this being a free speech issue?

Boru

I don’t think that anyone is saying that anyone else is “sub-human” in this case (nor am I).

And I think that we should be very slow to have the state dictating what is conscionable for a person. I also think as (I have stated before) that one would have a difficult case making this argument on the grounds of the history of the Christian faith and the Bible. It may have been tried at times, but it has no foundation holding it up.

It’s also, not about discriminating against the person.  As you seem to try to make it to be.

You miss my point.  If a man may excuse his bigotry against the LGBT community on religious grounds, what is to stop him from excusing his bigotry against anyone on religious grounds?

Boru

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The shop owner is an idiot who obviously doesn't have much business sense. He should have just made the cake. Neither the woman nor the cake was infringing on his right to practice his religious beliefs. Neither the customer nor the cake were preventing him from praying, attending the church of his choice, talking with a member of clergy, teaching others about his religion, worshipping his god, or receiving communion. It was simply a cake that someone wanted made and this nutjob is clearly in the wrong business if he allows his religion to undermine the sole purpose of his business.  I hope people get the shits of this guy and stop giving him business. Maybe when he can't pay his bills due to lack of income from having zero customers, he might come to his senses. I highly doubt it though.

Excellent point.  I propose an experiment to determine both the baker's religious sincerity and his business acumen.  Google informs me that the average cost of a wedding cake in the US is a little under $500.  Suppose he was offered $100 000 to craft a cake with the lettering, 'TO HANK AND ROGER ON THEIR WEDDING DAY.  MAY GOD GRANT YOU MANY HAPPY YEARS OF COCK SUCKING' and decorated with marzipan penises.

I suspect (but cannot prove) that Mr. Phillips would jump at this offer in a short minute.

Boru

[robvalue]

I'm not sure if the Christians in this thread are arguing that what happened wasn't illegal, or that it shouldn't be illegal.

This guy seemed to go out of his way to make sure what he did was illegal, by referring to a protected class in his refusal speech. It would have been difficult, if not impossible, to show what grounds he had refused on if he simply declined the custom order. It would then require a succession of transgender people all being refused, I imagine.