On Hell and Forgiveness

[The Grand Nudger]

Next at ten, diagnostic and technical definitions do not always match one for one with vernacular or colloquial use.

[Catholic_Lady]

For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

Yeah CL... the word delusion is connotatively linked to mental disorder, but check the definition...

de·lu·sion
dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
   "the delusion of being watched"
   synonyms:
   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; 
   fallacy, illusion, fantasy
   
   

misconception... misunderstanding... mistake... all synonyms. When separated from its typical association with mental disorder, one can see why an atheist would consider theism "delusional."

...It also says it is typically a symptom of mental illness. And that it is "maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument." By believing in God, you are not contradicting what is generally accepted as reality.

I think it is dishonest for you to say that people calling me delusional is the same as being told I am mistaken, have a misconception, or have a misunderstanding. I don't mind being told by people that they think I am mistaken. It is when I'm being told I'm delusional, particularly by people who themselves have a mental illness while I don't, that upsets me.

[vulcanlogician]

[quote='vulcanlogician' pid='1808061' dateline='1535664368']

Yeah CL... the word delusion is connotatively linked to mental disorder, but check the definition...


misconception... misunderstanding... mistake... all synonyms. When separated from its typical association with mental disorder, one can see why an atheist would consider theism "delusional."

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio.../Delusions

Delusions
Definition
A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion. Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.

But you quoted from a medical dictionary whose purpose is to try to quantify delusion as a behavioral phenomenon. If a medical dictionary were to categorize belief in God as delusional, it would thereby advance what you and I know to be untrue: that belief in God constitutes mental illness.

To call theism delusional in the colloquial sense is to say that theists are wrong. To call them delusional in the medical sense is to say they are mentally ill. To me, the shoe fits according to the first definition... not the second.

edit: you have a point as far as "commonly accepted"...

[The Grand Nudger]

My brother thinks his manager is out to get him.  He's fuckin delusional.  I tell him that all the time.  There's nothing about her or anything she's ever done that would lead a person to think that..and plenty that would lead a more rational person to conclude otherwise.

Nevertheless, he doesn't have a disorder on account of thinking so, lol. The religious are in an identical position..regardless of whether or not they're sick.
(the ones who babble about talking to god and believe it..tho, yeah those guys are fuckin nuts - even the religious know that those guys are fuckin nuts)

[Catholic_Lady]

[quote='vulcanlogician' pid='1808061' dateline='1535664368']

Yeah CL... the word delusion is connotatively linked to mental disorder, but check the definition...


misconception... misunderstanding... mistake... all synonyms. When separated from its typical association with mental disorder, one can see why an atheist would consider theism "delusional."

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio.../Delusions

Delusions
Definition
A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion. Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.

But you quoted from a medical dictionary whose purpose is to try to quantify delusion as a behavioral phenomenon. If a medical dictionary were to categorize belief in God as delusional, it would thereby advance what you and I know to be untrue: that belief in God constitutes mental illness.

To call theism delusional in the colloquial sense is to say that theists are wrong. To call them delusional in the medical sense is to say they are mentally ill. To me, the shoe fits according to the first definition... not the second.

But even the "non medical" definition of delusion doesnt fit, and says it is typically a mental illness.

Maybe some of the people here who call me delusional don't mean it in a medical sense, but it still has a demeaning connotation due to its association with mental disorder. And they know that. Otherwise they would just say I'm wrong or mistaken.

[The Grand Nudger]

You'd think a person might be more concerned that their tormentors were accurately describing them..rather than whether or not that description was unkind.  : shrugs :

[vulcanlogician]

But even the "non medical" definition of delusion doesnt fit, and says it is typically a mental illness.

Maybe some of the people here who call me delusional don't mean it in a medical sense, but it still has a demeaning connotation due to its association with mental illness. And they know that. Otherwise they would just say I'm wrong or mistaken.

Typically is not always... meaning that even if something is typically used in a certain way, that doesn't mean that each time the term is used it refers to mental illness.

On the second point, I think it's inaccurate to call you delusional. You once said something like, "The Bible is a spiritual and moral guide; it is not a science book." While I think there are better moral guidebooks out there than the Bible, I have a hard time classifying you as delusional when there are people out there who say, "The Bible is a science book." I'll reserve the term for them. Lol. You, CL, are just wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

OTOH, catholics do think that cantrips turn crackers into something else, that a man in a dress can speak infallibly for a god, and that one man and one woman were literally created and fell..among other goodies. 

"Wrong" doesn't quite approach that.  I was wrong about how much money I owed the electricians.

[Amarok]

But even the "non medical" definition of delusion doesnt fit, and says it is typically a mental illness. 

Yes it does and typically is just that typically 

Maybe some of the people here who call me delusional don't mean it in a medical sense, but it still has a demeaning connotation due to its association with mental disorder. And they know that. Otherwise they would just say I'm wrong or mistaken

No it's not it's simply describing the condition and that's your opinion of the term we should use not a necessary term we should use .

---

...It also says it is typically a symptom of mental illness. And that it is "maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument." By believing in God, you are not contradicting what is generally accepted as reality. 

Yes you are 

I think it is dishonest for you to say that people calling me delusional is the same as being told I am mistaken, have a misconception, or have a misunderstanding. 

What you think is about it is irrelevant  that's what they mean when they say it .

I don't mind being told by people that they think I am mistaken. It is when I'm being told I'm delusional, particularly by people who themselves have a mental illness while I don't, that upsets me.

Yeah no

[robvalue]

If god created this shit hole I live in, then he's a dick. If instead I lived in paradise, then sure, I may be able to love him if he showed up.

You would go mad in paradise but indeed the shit world he created is awful as well .

Sure yes, I'd probably need to be designed differently to fully appreciate it.

To expand on what I said in general:

Seeing as I'm told that the guy who made this world has unlimited power and resources, creating things as they actually are is downright sadistic, in my opinion. The amount of suffering in the world is so horrible that I have to block it out just to be able to function. So a hypothetical question about how loving God is can't apply to reality as it stands now, unless God is also a complete moron with no idea what he is doing with all that power.