3 simple points to end the discussion with any Sunni/Shiite

[Bob Kelso]

3-Show him that Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam are perfect religions for any dictator.

The same could be said of Islam in general (and any Abrahamic religion for that matter) and beyond.

Thoughts?

[WinterHold]

Here's the whole point: the Hadith books were never held as a revelation from God; rather they are "the recording of Mohammed's sayings after more than a century after his death".

All Muslims believe 100% that the Quran is the word of God, it's the special case. But the Hadith is not.
A person who wants to resort to Hadiths, is a person who is resorting to man's word, with the admission of all Muslims.

Professional tip:  the Quran isn't from God either.  (And for what it's worth, the Quran states that Mohammed's conduct is an example of right belief, so indirectly it does sanction the hadith.)

Mohammed -Peace be Upon Him-'s conduct is the following of God's command.

This verse says so:

Sura 2, The Quran:

https://quran.com/2/285

Sahih International

(285) The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Mohammed believed in what was revealed to him from his lord; and what was revealed is the Quran, not the Hadith books.

So following the example of Mohammed means what was mentioned in this verse: believe in the Quran (what was revealed to Mohammed from his lord) and any ancient holy books that weren't forged. Sadly in today's time, nothing remains untouched but the Quran.

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Is the Hadith the word of God, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

Is the quran the word of god, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

Islam strongly says that the Quran is the revelation of God on Mohammed -Peace be Upon Him-. This is the core leap of faith and the first one actually for 100% of Muslims.

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3-Show him that Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam are perfect religions for any dictator.

The same could be said of Islam in general (and any Abrahamic religion for that matter) and beyond.

Thoughts?

Example?

The Quran has this explicit order from God:

https://quran.com/2/256

Sura 2, The Quran:

Sahih International

(256) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

First thought that pops into my mind: how to be a dictator, when your God officially tells you that dictatorship and compulsion are forbidden; dictated in Sura 2 Verse 256 ??

[Angrboda]

Professional tip:  the Quran isn't from God either.  (And for what it's worth, the Quran states that Mohammed's conduct is an example of right belief, so indirectly it does sanction the hadith.)

Mohammed -Peace be Upon Him-'s conduct is the following of God's command.

This verse says so:

Sura 2, The Quran:

https://quran.com/2/285

Sahih International

(285) The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Mohammed believed in what was revealed to him from his lord; and what was revealed is the Quran, not the Hadith books.

So following the example of Mohammed means what was mentioned in this verse: believe in the Quran (what was revealed to Mohammed from his lord) and any ancient holy books that weren't forged. Sadly in today's time, nothing remains untouched but the Quran.

Even if that were true, it would be your opinion, not the word of God, and we'd be right back where we started from. But it's an opinion which isn't supported by the text. It's nothing more than an assertion of what you want to believe, rather than evidence of what you should believe. The fact is that the Quran says more than what you quoted and that something more indicates that you are wrong in claiming that this is all that following the example of Mohammed meant (and the verse you quoted says nothing about forged books). The statement you quote states that certain things are included and right for followers to consider but it does not say that the list given is exclusive in that it is a complete list of what followers should follow. Other parts of the Quran add to that list, and implicitly reference the hadith. I must also ask if you seriously believe that Mohammed's conduct is not a certain guide to appropriate and divinely inspired conduct, then does that criticism not extend to the things he says, including his claims about what was revealed to him by the archangel Gabriel? Where do you draw the line at what is and isn't divinely inspired? You seem to want to arbitrarily draw the line at a point which accords with what you believe, but that's not a rational argument for drawing the line there. You need to either abandon the Quran, or accept the Quran completely, which means as a result also following the hadith. There is no middle ground where belief in the Quran is justified but belief in the hadith is not.

There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."

Note that Surah 25.54 says to obey both Allah and obey the messenger. The Quran is the word of God. Likewise, the hadith are the word of Mohammed. Even the verse you quoted states that Mohammed believed in his messengers, such as Jesus Christ. Are you saying the words and acts of Jesus are not proper things for a Muslim to follow (providing the record of them is not corrupt)? If we are to follow the uncorrupted word of Jesus, why not the uncorrupted words of Mohammed. The only thing you can claim is that you have more reason to believe the words transmitted via the Quran than those transmitted via the hadith. Perhaps that is true, and it would be a matter of judgement of how to blend the hadith into the Quran, but it would not exclude the hadith entirely - that would be being inconsistent and acting contrary to the clear message of the Quran. So, it seems that you and other Quran-only reformers are the true infidels, not those that follow the hadith. Those who incorporate the hadith do so with deference to the Quran, but they don't ignore the hadith. Their belief is more consistent with the Quran than yours is.

[The Grand Nudger]

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Is the quran the word of god, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

Islam strongly says that the Quran is the revelation of God on Mohammed -Peace be Upon Him-. This is the core leap of faith and the first one actually for 100% of Muslims.

"Magic book says...." 

Moving forward, hadith are verified by the same process that the quran is.  Either that process is credible..or it isn't.  If the ibn-chain is sufficient to certify magic book, then it's sufficient for hadith.  If it's not sufficient to certify hadith....why would it be sufficient in the case of magic book?

[chimp3]

Yes, Peace be upon Muhammed! 

'bout time, the fucking warmonger!

[Angrboda]

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Islam strongly says that the Quran is the revelation of God on Mohammed -Peace be Upon Him-. This is the core leap of faith and the first one actually for 100% of Muslims.

"Magic book says...." 

Moving forward, hadith are verified by the same process that the quran is.  Either that process is credible..or it isn't.  If the ibn-chain is sufficient to certify magic book, then it's sufficient for hadith.  If it's not sufficient to certify hadith....why would it be sufficient in the case of magic book?

Indeed. There is plenty of evidence that the Quran and its transmission isn't reliable, so faulting the hadith on that account is simple hypocrisy.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Becky said that she overhead Tiffany talking to Janet about a conversation between Rebecca and Steve"

Allah Akbar!

[Bob Kelso]

The same could be said of Islam in general (and any Abrahamic religion for that matter) and beyond.

Thoughts?

Example?

You’re asking for an example of Islamic dictatorship? Khomeini is the first that comes to mind.

The Quran has this explicit order from God:

https://quran.com/2/256

Sura 2, The Quran:

Sahih International

(256) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

First thought that pops into my mind: how to be a dictator, when your God officially tells you that dictatorship and compulsion are forbidden; dictated in Sura 2 Verse 256 ??

Doesn’t seem to matter much to certain Islamic groups or leaders, it’s almost like their beliefs are cherry picked to suit their needs or something.

[Angrboda]

https://quran.com/2/256

Sura 2, The Quran:

Sahih International

(256) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

First thought that pops into my mind: how to be a dictator, when your God officially tells you that dictatorship and compulsion are forbidden; dictated in Sura 2 Verse 256 ??

As pointed out in your last thread on the religion of peace, that is a bunch of crap. But keep telling the lie. Maybe if you repeat it often enough someone will believe it.

[Mystic]

The Quran advises to ask the family of the reminder when you don't know so please don't follow this ignorant person to understand Quran but rely on the chosen leaders by God who know how to manifest it's wonders, belief in Messengers is emphasized a long side believing in his books, because books were never enough, you need the leaders who Guide by God's command and establish justice by the truth to help on the journey, that, and the books of God are all about revealing their stations as proofs of God and the means to God and about establishing their authority. The Torah, Gospels and Quran are united on that.