The obsession with exactly two levels

[robvalue]

Any religion that involves gods seems to operate on basically the same model: there is our level of existence, and then there is that of god(s).

How and where the gods actually exist, and what it even means for them to exist has become more and more muddied as scientific knowledge has progressed. It seems clear to me that it was originally a case of us being "down here", and god being "up there". As it became apparent that space didn't operate in such a basic way, and our exploration and observation found no trace of this godly realm, it has been evicted to some other-worldly dimension.

Anyhow, my point is that there is never any consideration of more levels. As a simple example, what we consider to be "the universe" could be a manifestation of some process in another level of reality (such as a simulation), which was then in turn created by gods. It could go further still, to include any number of nested levels, before reaching the god level.

Why are there no religions which allow for this kind of possibility? My suggested answers would be:

1) People want simple answers to difficult questions, and extra levels just add complications

2) People want to feel special, with as close a connection with these gods as they can

3) God's motivations become even harder to account for with extra levels

Stepping outside of religion, there could be the possibility that there are multiple levels, but that the top one has either always existed, or just "came to be". This is essentially what the god layer is anyway, a stopper for an iterative series of questions to which some people will accept only certain answers. Or we could be the only level.

[purplepurpose]

Scientology has many levels. The guy was a sci-fi writer.

[robvalue]

I realized that considering other levels deflates the idea of "god" in the first place, because that involves a creation method from a regular, non-god area. I don't know why this idea would be so strange though, seeing as we regularly make simulations, and we wouldn't necessarily know if elements of them became conscious.

[Angrboda]

Buddhism postulates many different levels, many different planes of existence, and many levels for gods.

[robvalue]

Buddhism postulates many different levels, many different planes of existence, and many levels for gods.

Oh okay, that's interesting, thanks. Were these levels all created by gods (if they were created at all)?

I suppose this raises the usual question of what a god is, anyhow. If it's just something that could potentially create a new level, then we are gods too.

[Angrboda]

The Buddhists don't believe in creator gods. It's all a function of karma which plane you are reborn into after each life, and what sort of being you become. I'd have to do some research regarding Buddhist origins regarding existence and the various planes. My understanding is that in Buddhism, gods are essentially just extremely accomplished and powerful beings. The reason Buddhists likely don't concentrate on the gods is that the goal of Buddhism is nirvana, to be released from perpetual existence. The gods themselves are too comfortable to be motivated towards attaining nirvana, so they are actually considered less likely than a human to achieve nirvana.

Buddhist rebirth in different planes of existence

[vulcanlogician]

The Buddhists don't believe in creator gods.  It's all a function of karma which plane you are reborn into after each life, and what sort of being you become.  I'd have to do some research regarding Buddhist origins regarding existence and the various planes.  My understanding is that in Buddhism, gods are essentially just extremely accomplished and powerful beings.  The reason Buddhists likely don't concentrate on the gods is that the goal of Buddhism is nirvana, to be released from perpetual existence.  The gods themselves are too comfortable to be motivated towards attaining nirvana, so they are actually considered less likely than a human to achieve nirvana.

Buddhist rebirth in different planes of existence

In the case of bodhisattvas (like Avalokitesvara), they are enlightened beings who are a single step from attaining nirvana but who (out of compassion) choose to remain connected with the world to help other beings attain enlightenment.



Not very much aware of gods apart from bodhisattvas in the Buddhist tradition. Is that what you meant?

[The Grand Nudger]

The fascination with gods kingdom is a simple one (no matter how many levels there are to that kingdom).  It's a place where all the ills of this world (real or perceived) are rectified.

[fromdownunder]

Robert A Heinlein's Job: A Comedy of Justice suggested multiple levels of Gods, where Yahweh, Satan, Odin et all were only apprentices to a higher level God, who in turn may have had his own superiors. Yahweh used Loki to create a new Job. It was Gods all the way up.

Norm

[robvalue]

The Buddhists don't believe in creator gods.  It's all a function of karma which plane you are reborn into after each life, and what sort of being you become.  I'd have to do some research regarding Buddhist origins regarding existence and the various planes.  My understanding is that in Buddhism, gods are essentially just extremely accomplished and powerful beings.  The reason Buddhists likely don't concentrate on the gods is that the goal of Buddhism is nirvana, to be released from perpetual existence.  The gods themselves are too comfortable to be motivated towards attaining nirvana, so they are actually considered less likely than a human to achieve nirvana.

Buddhist rebirth in different planes of existence

Thank you

This does indeed involve different levels, but since they are all essentially progression routes, the focus is still very much on us.

I realized that suggesting we are maybe some sort of biproduct or creation of another level, which is the actual part god is interested in, makes religious stories lose their impact. It would feel like it's nothing to do with us, as we can never travel to this next "real" level. So I think it's this lack of satisfaction that stops anyone putting god anywhere but directly focusing on us. The problem, of course, is that the truth of the matter doesn't depend on our satisfaction levels. So the theist must choose between what they wish were true, and what is actually true.