My proofs for Islam

[Brian37]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

Nobody is claiming you cant find facts. What we are objecting to is how most humans determine what they think facts are.


Beliefs and facts are two separate things.

I can, for example believe all I want that I am dating Angelina Jolie and justify it by pointing out that she is a real human, and so am I. But unless I could show pictures, and documents of a real relationship, the wise would say i was making it up, delusional, or flat out lying. 

There was a point in our species history when most humans thought the earth was flat, but that turned out to be a mere belief and not the proven scientific fact that the earth is a globe that we know now.

Buying a claim because it feels good does not constitute fact.

Buying a claim based on a history of tradition, also does not constitute fact. A history of making a false claim, does not make the claim a fact. The ancient Egyptians BELIEVED that the Sun god Ra controlled the sun. And they falsely believed that as fact for over 3,000 years.

There are proper ways of separating personal bias out of fact finding. Mere belief is not enough to constitute fact.

[Angrboda]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

Nobody is claiming you cant find facts. What we are objecting to is how most humans determine what they think facts are.


Beliefs and facts are two separate things.

I can, for example believe all I want that I am dating Angelina Jolie and justify it by pointing out that she is a real human, and so am I. But unless I could show pictures, and documents of a real relationship, the wise would say i was making it up, delusional, or flat out lying. 

There was a point in our species history when most humans thought the earth was flat, but that turned out to be a mere belief and not the proven scientific fact that the earth is a globe that we know now.

Buying a claim because it feels good does not constitute fact.

Buying a claim based on a history of tradition, also does not constitute fact. A history of making a false claim, does not make the claim a fact. The ancient Egyptians BELIEVED that the Sun god Ra controlled the sun. And they falsely believed that as fact for over 3,000 years.

There are proper ways of separating personal bias out of fact finding. Mere belief is not enough to constitute fact.

I don't think you and he are on the same page. He's talking about "basic beliefs" which is a concept from epistemology that only partially overlaps with the more common concept of "beliefs" in general.

See the following Wikipedia articles for clarification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_belief

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundationalism

[LadyForCamus]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

I don’t think that belief in god is a properly basic belief, nor do I think your assertion that there exists a true, perfectly objective self is a properly basic belief either.  I’m not even confident that you have coherently defined the concept. Properly basic beliefs don’t require justification for being believed, but you are still required to justify your assertion that it’s a properly basic belief in the first place. I dont think you can do that. In terms of modern foundationalism, at least from what I understand if it, a belief would be qualify a properly basic if there was no way it could be wrong.  Your assertion fails on that point, at least.

[Mystic]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

I don’t think that belief in god is a properly basic belief, nor do I think your assertion that there exists a true, perfectly objective self is a properly basic belief either.  Properly basic beliefs don’t require justification for being believed, but you still have to justify why you believe it’s a properly basic belief in the first place. I dont think you can do that. In terms of modern foundationalism, at least from what I understand if it, a belief would be qualify a properly basic if there was no way it could be wrong.  Your assertion fails on that point, at least.

Ok, thanks for letting me know.  If God exists and we have an objective reality to who we are in his sight, do you think it's possible in that case, that it would be a properly basic vision of the self to know we objectively exist and not only that, but can only do so in his sight?

[Angrboda]

You believe there is no properly basic beliefs at all?

I don’t think that belief in god is a properly basic belief, nor do I think your assertion that there exists a true, perfectly objective self is a properly basic belief either.  I’m not even confident that you have coherently defined the concept. Properly basic beliefs don’t require justification for being believed, but you still have to justify your assertion that it’s a properly basic belief in the first place. I dont think you can do that. In terms of modern foundationalism, at least from what I understand if it, a belief would be qualify a properly basic if there was no way it could be wrong.  Your assertion fails on that point, at least.

I'd have to research the matter, but if memory serves, that property, incorrigibilty, is desirable but not required. Just off the top of my head, it would be impossible to prove incorrigibility for many basic beliefs and requiring justification of a belief as basic by requiring showing incorrigibility would seem to cut across the grain of the very concept.

This does bring up an interesting digression, though. While not necessarily conclusive, Munchausen's Trilemma suggests that anything that requires ultimate justification must ultimately cash itself out in terms of basic beliefs, as any other route leads to logical vacuity. This depends upon accepting the assumptions of the Trilemma, specifically with regard to truth and other epistemological issues, but it is a compelling argument on its own.

[The Grand Nudger]

Has it ever occurred to you, MK, to simply live your truest life and let the chips fall?  Rather than seeking out meaning in these things that you clearly struggle with, yourself..to seek out what meaning need not be argued into existence in the first place?  

If you live that truest life, and it's wrong by the judgement of others..even a divine other, then so be it.  Perhaps there will even be a price to pay...but what would you pay for the privilege of being...?

[Mystic]

Has it ever occurred to you, MK, to simply live your truest life and let the chips fall?  Rather than seeking out meaning in these things that you clearly struggle with, yourself..to seek out what meaning need not be argued into existence in the first place?  

If you live that truest life, and it's wrong by the judgement of others..even a divine other, then so be it.  Perhaps there will even be a price to pay...but what would you pay for the privilege of being...?

I am sick of myself and don't want to stay like the way it is. Everyone around me constantly praises me, the medical staff constantly think well of me unlike the forums.  In real life, people think really highly of me, my friends, professors, classmates, etc.  But I don't... and won't trick myself I am that mask that I put on.  What I am truly am, lies in how I stand, bow, and prostrate before my Lord in the connection ritual, and how I in tune myself with the name of God therein.  And I have been utter failure and insolent in that regard, as if all my prayers just further me from him where I pay more attention to myself and adore myself more therein then him.

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you do anything to engender this view of you?  Could it be that you have misled those who have attempted to help you...lead them to believe that you are better off than you are?

How successful do you think they would be, in helping you, in what is ultimately your own work in changing what you find disgusting about yourself...... if you hide your truth from them in such a way? How, for that matter, is the diversion of some cult belief, in your own case, helpful towards the same?

How, Mystic, will prostrating yourself before -anything- help? I've been where you are.

[Mystic]

Do you do anything to engender this view of you?  Could it be that you have misled those who have attempted to help you...lead them to believe that you are better off than you are?

How successful do you think they would be, in helping you, if you hide your truth from them in such a way?

You have to be positive around people. My failure in the daily connections (rituals), they can't help me in that regard.

[The Grand Nudger]

The beliefs that you have espoused on these boards are not positive. They are diametrically opposed to that. Perhaps your "failure" is in that you have devoted yourself to something that simply cannot help you?